EMT #28 with Janice Cardinale - Event Minds Matter: Mental Health & Emotional Intelligence in Events

In this episode of Event Marketer’s Toolbox, hosts Chris Dunn and Brendon Hamlin are joined by Janice Cardinale, Founder of Cardinale Creative, to discuss the growing need for emotional intelligence and psychological safety in the event industry. Janice is spearheading an initiative to raise awareness about mental health and emotional intelligence through training and educational resources for the next generation of event professionals.

Janice shares her personal journey with mental health and how it drove her to launch Event Minds Matter, a platform for advocacy and education. She reflects on the success of her “30 Days, 30 Voices” campaign, which featured respected voices from the event industry discussing the importance of mental health awareness. This powerful campaign has now led to a survey and ongoing research, supported by Dr. Anna Sverdlik, PhD, a professor at McGill University, to further the mission of providing resources and education for emotional intelligence training in events.

Take action now by completing the survey and helping shape the future of event industry education: Survey Link.

• Why Mental Health Matters in Events:
  Janice explains how mental health struggles, often hidden behind the scenes in the event industry, affect professionals’ well-being. She shares her personal experience with depression and why understanding emotional intelligence is essential in supporting the mental health of employees in the events space.
• Creating the Curriculum:
  With the help of Dr. Anna Sverdlik from McGill University, Janice is working to create a training curriculum designed to address emotional intelligence and psychological safety specifically for the event industry. The curriculum will provide tools to help both employees and employers navigate difficult conversations and foster a culture of psychological safety.
• The Urgency of Change:
  Janice speaks about the need for real change in how the industry approaches mental health. She emphasizes that leaders must prioritize emotional intelligence training to prevent burnout and promote well-being in the workplace, especially as event professionals are often under immense pressure.
• Survey and Research for a Better Future:
  The survey launched by Event Minds Matter seeks to gather data on the state of mental health in the event industry. The research will inform the creation of the much-needed curriculum and provide a roadmap for improving mental health awareness and resources for event professionals.

By prioritizing emotional intelligence and psychological safety, event professionals can build a healthier, more resilient industry.

👉🏼 Join us for more insightful discussions like this by tuning into 'Event Marketer's Toolbox,' where industry leaders share the tools, tactics, and trends driving success in the event world.

This Show is sponsored by Blue Hive

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Chapters

• 0:00 Episode Intro & Guest Introduction
• 3:39 Why Mental Health Matters in Events
• 7:39 “30 Days, 30 Voices” Campaign
• 12:39 The Need for Emotional Intelligence & Psychological Safety
• 17:39 The Survey and Research for Curriculum Development
• 22:39 The Impact of Mental Health Training on the Event Industry
• 26:39 Looking Ahead: Empowering the Next Generation of Event Professionals
• 30:39 Janice’s 3 Key Takeaways for Event Professionals
• 34:39 Closing Thoughts & Wrap-Up

Transcript

0:00:00
 (Chris Dunn)
 Hello and welcome to the Event Marketers Toolbox. Happy Thursday. I hope everybody's doing great. I am Chris Dunn. I am with Blue Hive Exhibits, and I'm super happy to have a couple of friends

0:00:11
 (Chris Dunn)
 from the event industry on today. Really looking forward to this conversation with Janice Cardinale. But before we get to her, I have a guest co-host. You've seen him before. You know him, you love him. Brendon Hamlin of Hamlin creative. Hey, Brendon, how's

0:00:25
 (Chris Dunn)
 it going?

0:00:25
 (Brendon Hamlin)
 Hey, Chris. It's going great. Other than some poison ivy. I'm doing great. That'll be a different a different show. But yeah, but no, thanks for having me back. I'm happy to be here today, especially with Janice. I'm Brendon Hamlin. I run Hamlin creative. We're a production company that focuses on strategy and executing content in and around live events.

0:00:48
 (Brendon Hamlin)
 So that's trade shows or experiential or activations. It's that whole world of in-person events. And so we create content in and around those spaces. So, but that's not why we're here today. Today we are here because we have Janice Cardinale with us.

0:01:05
 (Brendon Hamlin)
 Welcome Janice.

0:01:06
 (Janice Cardinale)
 Thank you, Brendon. I'm so pleased to be here. Anywhere I can advocate and create awareness matters.

0:01:14
 (Chris Dunn)
 Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for joining us. You were active in the chat last week and really kind of got to know you through some work that you and Brendon had done together. And we're going to do a little bit of a deeper dive on that. As we kind of jump into our show, before we get too far along,

0:01:31
 (Chris Dunn)
 we talk a little bit about our sponsors. We have two sponsors, Blue Hive, who is my employer, a creative group. We are located on both the West coast and the East coast. We have a Vegas location, which we full functioning shop and warehouse and so forth to support the West Coast and the East Coast. We have a Vegas location, which we full functioning shop and warehouse and so forth to support the West Coast market.

0:01:49
 (Chris Dunn)
 Our headquarters are outside of Boston. We got started about 20 years ago and we kind of like to feel like we're in that sweet spot for up and coming brands that are growing. We're a little over a hundred people. So we're not a small group and we're not the big ones

0:02:04
 (Chris Dunn)
 where you get lost, and you just turn into a number. In addition to that, we also are sponsored by Fistbump. And Fistbump is an agency, kind of came across them a couple years ago. I got involved with the founder, and started with some, some LinkedIn work for that they do for founders and sales leaders and so forth. And eventually, we arrived at them being a group that could help us put together a podcast.

0:02:33
 (Chris Dunn)
 This is exactly what we're looking at right here. We are half a year in, so we've got 26, 27 episodes under our belt. And it's been so great to talk to so many event professionals. We are doing our best to build a community of like-minded event professionals here that are supporting each other, that are sharing information, that are kind of touching on all of these different topics to help make us better at our at our jobs. And today we're

0:03:01
 (Chris Dunn)
 going to do exactly that. We're going to but we're going to really dive into more of kind of a look at our mental health across the board in the event industry. So Janice, I know you're going to end up doing an awful lot of sharing and talking about your story. But we're going to have Juana put up a QR code that can take people to, to a survey. So why don't you maybe start off by talking just a little bit about that, and then we're gonna kind of jump in with, how you got involved with this amazing cause.

0:03:32
 (Janice Cardinale)
 The survey is a vehicle for us to create some research in the industry now, five years after COVID, to enable us to understand at the history now, five years after COVID, to enable us to understand where people are feeling now about their mental health and their

0:03:50
 (Janice Cardinale)
 well-being. About their workplace situations. Because often what we don't see is often behind the scenes

0:03:56
 (Janice Cardinale)
 and how people are feeling. A lot of people don't want to have their reputations affected or they have shame about how they're feeling and there's a stigma potentially there.

0:04:09
 (Janice Cardinale)
 So the best way to bring action to the industry and change the narrative is to do a survey and then do the research and then create the curriculum. And I'm very fortunate to be working with a PhD out of Montreal who teaches the Masters of Psychology program at McGill University.

0:04:30
 (Janice Cardinale)
 And you have to have somebody from academia to do this properly. So I have had many years of experience in the event industry. I owned a company for 20 years. So between the two of us, we are in a good place right now

0:04:45
 (Janice Cardinale)
 that is just gathering and gathering information. And the support throughout the industry has been very positive. So I'm really excited about that.

0:04:54
 (Chris Dunn)
 Yeah, that's super exciting. We were in the green room, obviously prior to the show and talking a little bit about some of the places that you're gonna be able to see large organizations within the event forum, kind of rolling out this survey. So we're really looking forward to shining a light on this.

0:05:13
 (Chris Dunn)
 Just before we really jump in, this is a live show. We are right here today, and we encourage you to drop some comments and let us know where you're listening from, where you're tuning in from. And if at any point you wanna ask a question,

0:05:28
 (Chris Dunn)
 we'll do our best to get to that question and go ahead and run with that. And then in addition, obviously this is taped. Do we say taped anymore? Everything's digital. I don't know, Brendon, that's a question for you.

0:05:41
 (Chris Dunn)
 It's recorded and it will be shared. It'll be available here on LinkedIn. It'll be available on YouTube. And then it also shows up on all of your favorite podcast platforms as well. So we are everywhere. But all right, so that's good. Hopefully we'll see a lot of activity within the comments today. And I want to get us started. So Janice, you kind of hinted at it, but why is mental health a critical for event professionals? Give us a little bit of your backstory

0:06:10
 (Chris Dunn)
 that will kind of paint this picture.

0:06:13
 (Janice Cardinale)
 My backstory and the reason why it's important to event professionals are different, but my backstory and the truth is that I've experienced depression. And when you have experienced it, you know what it feels like to go through it.

0:06:28
 (Janice Cardinale)
 And you know, it's very crippling mentally. And that's part of the reason why I'm doing what I'm doing. But the other part of the reason is that after COVID, of course, you know, there needed to be platforms where people could speak together and feel safe together to enable a conversation

0:06:51
 (Janice Cardinale)
 about how they're feeling. And often, it's... I found there was a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety that was turning into depression for quite a few people. And we're not talking about diagnosed depression here. We're talking about depression from loss of work, from family issues, from all kinds of different things. So the article that I wrote on LinkedIn ended

0:07:21
 (Janice Cardinale)
 up resonating with a lot of people, which is what really pulled me in. I began a community called Event Minds Matter, which is aptly named. We started to create advocacy and awareness through pillars that we spent six months looking at. Those pillars mainly came about because we looked at the things that as event professionals, what we didn't like about the industry, what we thought were the problems prior to COVID.

0:07:55
 (Janice Cardinale)
 So that enabled us to create the pillars. And then we sort of spread out from there and people started to follow slowly but surely. But over the last three and a half years, so much has changed, so much has come about, and it's no longer the discussion around COVID, it's more of a discussion around, you know, geopolitics, the world, the, you know, people

0:08:21
 (Janice Cardinale)
 losing their jobs again, you know, not being able to feed their families, people being afraid to travel, it's all kinds of things. So I would have hoped by now we would be getting better and continue on that road of, you know, yay, everything's great, but it's not. It's not. So with it being something that has never really been recognized in our industry insofar as wellness has been recognized. Everybody has come to the table to talk about wellness, to offer retreats for vacationers or business, corporate business.

0:08:58
 (Janice Cardinale)
 Hotels have come up with amazing corporate wellness programs but all of that is driven by profit. None of that is driven really by prioritizing people. So I just had a conversation the other day with somebody who, we were talking about EAPs versus benefits versus training. And the one thing that I know about our industry globally is that there is no training for psychological safety or emotional intelligence in our industry.

0:09:29
 (Janice Cardinale)
 And the reason that I talk about this is because it's so important to the fact that I don't know you, Brendon, or you, Chris, if you've ever had to deal with people in recognizing a problem in the workplace and knowing how to respond to it.

0:09:44
 (Janice Cardinale)
 Because there are a lot of people who don't knowing how to respond to it. Because there are a lot of people who don't know how to respond to it. And sometimes what people say in the workplace can trigger somebody in a way that's very dangerous. So I think that by creating a program where we have those, you know, lessons on how to respond and what somebody can do who feels they're under toxic leadership, how they can respond back. This is what we're trying to do. And so that's

0:10:15
 (Janice Cardinale)
 the premise of this whole thing. And the survey is important because everybody is going to get us to where we have to go next.

0:10:31
 (Chris Dunn)
 Yeah, exactly. No, that's tremendous and you're right. One of the other things that we had some side conversations prior and you mentioned dealing with a person who's an experienced person, been in the event game for a number of years and from the hustle culture, right? Where it was more of a toughen up buttercup, kind of a, you know, I don't give a crap about what you feel. Here's what I need. Right.

0:10:52
 (Chris Dunn)
 And we were taught, uh, those of us who entered the workforce a bunch of years ago, that work is work, right? And you just do, you do what you need to do and you jump, jump through those hoops. And sometimes it means giving up your weekend and giving up your vacation with your family and all that stuff. And I'm really pleased that we're at a place where we can at least talk about it.

0:11:09
 (Speaker 10)
 Right.

0:11:09
 (Chris Dunn)
 And look at that. Um, yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, Brendon, you and Janice worked on a wonderful campaign and I, I want to take the appropriate amount of time, uh, you know, to kind of dive into that. So tell us a little bit about how you guys got connected and then just this 30

0:11:30
 (Chris Dunn)
 days of 30 voices and, and kind of where that came from and, and what have some of the results been?

0:11:37
 (Brendon Hamlin)
 Yeah, well, I can, I can share the production side of it. And then, and then Janice can really talk about the origins of it. But I connected with Janice six months ago, maybe eight months ago, and we struck up a conversation and started talking about what she does. And she had collected voices at IMEX last year and was trying to figure out exactly what to do with them. And so we were talking about it and she had one idea and then we talked a little bit more

0:12:11
 (Brendon Hamlin)
 and it felt like it really could become a campaign. And so she had collected all these voices across the events space from that event. And I looked at it and I said, hey, look, we, we really could create a, an effective campaign because you have all these different people. We put it in a template. And we roll that out every day in May, which is Mental Health Awareness Month. And so she provided the content, and we, we basically packaged it up and delivered the, delivered the campaign back to her. But Janice, maybe talk a little bit about how that, you know,

0:12:46
 (Brendon Hamlin)
 what was the origin of that idea? And then, you know, how is it, you know, what has been the ramifications and results of rolling out that campaign?

0:12:58
 (Janice Cardinale)
 Before I get into that, I just want to say that working with you was seamless and it was an incredible experience. Like I, you know, I speak the truth and there are lots of video production companies but working with you, I found your company to be ultra professional. And you were, I remember the night that your wife

0:13:21
 (Janice Cardinale)
 said something to me about, Brandon's not even sleeping yet. I can, it was like two in the morning. So I know how you work. You work like I do, unfortunately, which is all I was in the day.

0:13:35
 (Brendon Hamlin)
 And kind of what we're talking about here today.

0:13:36
 (Speaker 4)
 Right.

0:13:37
 (Janice Cardinale)
 Yes.

0:13:38
 (Speaker 9)
 Yeah.

0:13:38
 (Janice Cardinale)
 Well, that's because we're habitual world.

0:13:40
 (Speaker 5)
 Or, yeah.

0:13:43
 (Janice Cardinale)
 Um, but how this whole thing got started really was through Michael Hoffman, which owns a company, he owns a company called Gathering Voices. And I was looking for a way to bring more attention to mental health and emotional intelligence in the industry. And I thought that maybe by doing a video,

0:14:05
 (Janice Cardinale)
 it might be a great idea to talk to people at IMAX about how they felt about mental health. And then in turn, ask them whether they felt that if psychological safety and emotional intelligence training would be effective and would benefit people in this industry.

0:14:22
 (Janice Cardinale)
 And not so much that people like myself who are elders of the industry, but certainly the next generation of event professionals who are coming up. I know from talking to them and having mentored them for 10 years during my tenure at a college as a board chair,

0:14:40
 (Janice Cardinale)
 that they have a very different perspective than I ever had about work. And it's not, it's a good perspective because they realize they want to put their lives in front of work and try to blend that in a way that everybody can have some joy in their life

0:15:01
 (Janice Cardinale)
 and not always feel that they're, you know, they're manifesting, you know, physically or mentally with what they're doing, because there's so much of a lack of support within organizations right now, budgets have been cut. You know, people are doing way more, as we all know, it's been going on for many years, long past COVID, and people are reaching a point where, you know, they can't handle it anymore. And

0:15:27
 (Janice Cardinale)
 especially in the elder generations, you know, I've seen the effects of what that can look like on friends of mine in the industry, and it's not pretty. So it's it's a wake up call. And it was a wake up call a long time ago, but nobody was willing to really take it on and keep fighting for it.

0:15:45
 (Janice Cardinale)
 So even though you can create awareness and advocacy and try to build a brave space within an organization so it can amplify a conversation, it's not the way that it is in every organization. In fact, it weighs more on people who are not, or using this theory

0:16:05
 (Janice Cardinale)
 in organizations like creating that culture than it does those who have culture. So I've spoken to both. So I understand where we stand in the industry as a whole. And I think that to do this properly, having these videos attracted a tremendous amount of attention because it

0:16:27
 (Janice Cardinale)
 couldn't be my voice any longer. It had to be the voices of respected leaders out there to share with everybody what they thought. Because I know that there is a lot of things that people won't say in front of some people, and so therefore this is what I was trying to do. And it worked out very well because what I was interested in was attracting the attention

0:16:48
 (Janice Cardinale)
 of the Events Industry Council, who governs the curriculum insofar as getting your CMP, which is Certified Meeting Professional, CMM, which is Certified Meeting Manager, and now CITP, which is certified in central travel professional. So it's very interesting from my experience with them to learn that education for curriculum is typically only reviewed once every five years. And that probably has more to do with once you've taken your exam through EIC,

0:17:30
 (Janice Cardinale)
 it's another five years before you have to take the exam again. So you'd be looking at what's happened in the last five years before you change the curriculum. The issue for me personally, and some people who are not certified,

0:17:44
 (Janice Cardinale)
 is that so much happens within a five-year period. And it's in this day and age with so much change in the industry, I think that we have to be able to be more flexible and react to change faster. So I had an opportunity to speak with them

0:18:04
 (Janice Cardinale)
 and it was a great conversation. And I told them that I am going to do a survey. I told them that I had a colleague of mine in Montreal who's a PhD and has spent a lot of time in research and in academia. And she is the professor of the master's program

0:18:25
 (Janice Cardinale)
 in psychology at McGill. So her and I have worked with a focus group. We've created a survey, which is where you'll find on the QR code today. And that survey is going to help us do a research paper, which in, and hopefully will turn into curriculum for the

0:18:47
 (Janice Cardinale)
 industry. And it doesn't matter whether or not you're certified or you're not certified, take this and learn how to recognize and respond. But it's also for the employees to understand how they can deal with situations in the workplace that occur, and they don't know what to do. They're afraid to say they're afraid to go to HR.

0:19:12
 (Janice Cardinale)
 So these are actually trainings for them as well. So it's, I can't see anybody not wanting to have this. If it makes you better at your job and it helps the organization maintain the talent that they have, I can't, there's no negative or downside to this.

0:19:33
 (Janice Cardinale)
 So that's a little bit about that.

0:19:36
 (Brendon Hamlin)
 I think what you did in putting this together was that you brought all these voices into the light. You brought people that across a whole spectrum, there were 60-some-odd videos you sent me, and we could only use half of them. But there were so many different people speaking out that I think that what you did was you really opened up that conversation to allow more people in to say, well, maybe I've got a something I want to talk about, making it safe, I think. And that was really an important thing that you did. And I was proud to be a part of it. So are you seeing

0:20:16
 (Brendon Hamlin)
 are you seeing more results or more people coming into the conversation now from not necessarily if that's exactly from that campaign, but I'm sure it would it helped right

0:20:29
 (Janice Cardinale)
 There's no question it it was the catalyst in my opinion for change It is what helped propel the survey Yeah, and to be very honest what I'm seeing now is an incredible amount of support for it. I have a lot of followers on LinkedIn and I live on LinkedIn in terms of I don't have a website, but so people know what I do

0:20:54
 (Janice Cardinale)
 and people know what the mission is about, but I cannot get over. There's somebody in Australia that I've met who has some of the most incredible content. His name is Ian Morrison and he just put it out and it was unbelievable how many people he got looking at this.

0:21:14
 (Janice Cardinale)
 So we're not reaching just North America, we're reaching into Europe and Australia and people want change. People have said, thank you for doing this. You know, thank you for finally, you know, really taking this on and the way you are and helping us. So that is so encouraging and so empowering. And, you know, it just it, what that does is fuels me even more to get through this and get it done, get the curriculum organized. And really, I can sit back maybe 10 years from now

0:21:47
 (Janice Cardinale)
 and look at what it really did. And I would like to think that it really helped improve what's going on, the conversation, the way that people are in the workplace. There's other organizations too that I follow that are doing a heck of a job,

0:22:03
 (Janice Cardinale)
 but there's an organization, because I live in Canada, but most of my audience is from the States. But there's an organization in the States that is called End Workplace Abuse. And that particular organization is going after

0:22:20
 (Janice Cardinale)
 building laws in every single state to help people who have really been bullied and sabotaged in the workplace, because there's a lot of that. And in the United States, I don't know if everybody realizes, but there are no laws, no labor laws that protect anybody in terms of psychological safety. And what fuels a lot of toxic leaders is engagement. If they know they have you and they can continue

0:22:49
 (Janice Cardinale)
 and engaging you in a way that is harassing you, how do you deal with that? And again, this is the whole point of curriculum, okay? It teaches you tips and tricks because if you learn how not to let them fuel you and Walk away from it or have the right thing to say to them. That's critical

0:23:13
 (Janice Cardinale)
 You know and that's to me the kind of training that we need and I've always said Communication is one of the most important factors no matter where you work or what industry you work in Yeah, and you know when what industry you work in. And when I think about our industry, yes, we communicate, we tell great stories, but we also tell stories of truth that are not so great.

0:23:33
 (Janice Cardinale)
 So what stories do we wanna tell 10 years from now? Are we still gonna be talking about mental health 10 years from now and how we all feel? I would hate to think that. I mean, I'd like to see the joy come out of this. That's the modus operandi.

0:23:49
 (Chris Dunn)
 Yeah. I hope we can get there. So, Jameer, we see you. I don't know if there was some difficulty in maybe getting into the chat, but his comment of, why can't I get into the meeting? But we can see that comment. So hopefully we get some other folks kind of weighing in, let us know where you are. And if you want to kind of weigh in on this, on this conversation. Janice, you, your business, Event Minds Matter, is powered by Club Ichi. What does that mean? So Liz Latham was, was one of our early guests. I think she was Episode 6 or 7. She's wonderful. So well versed in all things events, but you guys have obviously kind of teamed up.

0:24:27
 (Chris Dunn)
 And I would imagine that, she had several thousand people within her community. Can imagine that that was a big kind of bolster for both of you guys to kind of unite. And again, shine a light on this super important situation that we're all kind of facing.

0:24:43
 (Chris Dunn)
 And we've been reticent to talk about it in the past.

0:24:47
 (Janice Cardinale)
 You know, I have to hand it to Liz. She has done a magnificent job of bringing people together. When I first met Liz, it was right at the very beginning of her having Club Ichi and she did her first telethon and I can't even remember how we got connected if you want to know the truth,

0:25:04
 (Janice Cardinale)
 but it was the best connection I've ever made in the last year or two. She is very much aligned with well-being. I mean, David T. Stevens and Nicole and her are all passionate about what they're doing. But what I love about what Club Beachy is about is the fact that they include everybody, that they, you know, they have created a situation where, you know, you pay your membership, but everything comes with it.

0:25:36
 (Janice Cardinale)
 There's so much education. There's so many fun things that she writes about every day and sometimes two or three times a day. And she includes everybody like her. It's, it's where people are coming together and just sharing, but sharing in an honest, truthful, and, you know, unexpected ways.

0:25:56
 (Janice Cardinale)
 Like it's incredible if you, you know, being on the Slack channel, for example, like if somebody is looking for something, they say in Slack, okay, I'm looking for such and such and such and such a city. And all of a sudden she makes it available. So when I came to her with Event Minds Matter, you know, I said to her, I'm I can't do this by myself.

0:26:16
 (Janice Cardinale)
 I need more, more strength, more people, whatever. So we decided to align together. It was there was nothing to buy because Event Minds Matter is not a for-profit company. And it's not a not-for-profit company either because then I'd need board members

0:26:34
 (Janice Cardinale)
 and I don't want to go through all of that. It's strictly a community as a give back from myself. And the way in which she supported it is she has allowed our voices, those who write for Event Minds Matter, which are many different kinds of people, I always invite people to tell a story. But that's what's happened with it.

0:26:58
 (Janice Cardinale)
 And I'm grateful to even have Liz as a friend because she's very clear on how she thinks about things. And she is providing something that I have yet to see in any association. And that's just engagement, people embracing, people sharing, and people just feeling human. And I think that's the whole thing is that when we talk about human connection over this last couple of years, you know Her community is the role model for human connection so that's

0:27:33
 (Janice Cardinale)
 That's how I feel about Liz and Nicola and David

0:27:38
 (Chris Dunn)
 Pretty strong endorsement We love that So, you know one of the other things that you were saying earlier is, you know, you spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. And I think obviously here we are broadcasting as one of our channels,

0:27:51
 (Chris Dunn)
 but this platform has really kind of created a tremendous connection point. And it's how I've been hanging out with Brendon for about a year or so. We've not yet met in person, but we've become friends over this platform.

0:28:07
 (Chris Dunn)
 And I know you guys have really kind of formed your bond in the same fashion. We do see a little bit of shade and hate on LinkedIn. I don't think it's anything like some of the other social platforms where people are just angry and they're going after each other on a regular basis.

0:28:28
 (Chris Dunn)
 So, you know, it's, we're building, again, we're just kind of using this tool and we're building this community, which is wonderful. So sharing it and kind of, you know, sharing these ideas that ultimately can help everybody, you know, deal with the stresses and, you know, to kind of circle back and talk a little bit about both of you guys have a tremendous work ethic and you're

0:28:50
 (Chris Dunn)
 up late at night and you're you're working on stuff, right? So by no means are we saying that you know, that this is a soft situation or people just don't have a work ethic and they don't want to work hard anymore, Right. But it's a matter of establishing boundaries and saying this is I'm willing to do the work, but I, but I can't, I can't be, you know, giving up my entire life, you know, to, to bang out stuff in the next 24 hours, just because this potential client demanded it. Right. So we, we have to kind of, I guess, maybe just reframe some of us who are, you know, from the old school, the Gen Xers or boomers, you know, who kind of grew up working in a certain fashion and thinking in a certain

0:29:28
 (Chris Dunn)
 fashion, we have to reframe that a little bit. And to your, you know, to your point, just like making sure that, that the millennials and the Gen Z folks who are coming into it, you know, you know, see the right way to do it and, and establish those boundaries going forward.

0:29:44
 (Speaker 9)
 Right.

0:29:45
 (Brendon Hamlin)
 You know, there's, there's, um, one of the people that was in the videos is a friend of all of ours, uh, Rich Rodriguez. And he said in his video that one of the challenges for really dealing with, uh, mental health awareness is that the people that are in the event business are people pleasers. And so that, I mean, it's almost as if the folks in the event business, in a way, are working against themselves because they want to help, because they want to fulfill and really shine and do the very best they can, and sometimes put themselves even in a position that pushes them beyond what is

0:30:27
 (Brendon Hamlin)
 reasonable. So I think it's, there's two sides there. Not only is it, you know, a manager or a client or whatever, and their demands, but also the individual saying, I got to, I got to build my own wall off my own self, because I'm not going to make it if I don't. So I think that's an interesting kind of, there's a duality there that I'm sure is different than in other places where you might just be dealing with a physical safety issue. The mental safety issue is a whole other element of it, right?

0:30:59
 (Janice Cardinale)
 Right. You know, it's interesting. I had a conversation yesterday with somebody who's been in HR for many, many years because I'm looking at different areas of how things affect mental health. And I was speaking to her because often what's come up in my mind is when people, or I know people actually

0:31:21
 (Janice Cardinale)
 who have gone to HR and the next thing they know is they're signing an NDA and they're out. So we had a discussion about that yesterday and I've asked her to please start writing for me because she was a wealth of information and not that she's worked specifically in events, but she's worked for more than enough years for big corporations that she understands, you know, what the responsibility is of HR and how people should be approaching HR with what and what not to do. So I found it just really, you know, curious. And the other thing I'm very curious about, too, and

0:31:57
 (Janice Cardinale)
 I'm getting more into this too, is the governance within our industry and how really governance is created. And I'm learning a lot about that as well because governance in the United States or even within our industry is different than governance in another industry. Associations are different than non-associations,

0:32:22
 (Janice Cardinale)
 nonprofit associations. So, it's all part and parcel of the policies and procedures that are created, you know, by the human resource departments that contribute to the governance. So it's been eye-opening, I must tell you,

0:32:40
 (Janice Cardinale)
 you know, I didn't know this stuff when I had a company. You know, I knew that I had to have a policies and procedures book, but what I didn't know, and this came about, I actually spoke in the Senate in Boston, Massachusetts a couple of weeks ago on behalf of end workplace abuse. And the reason I spoke was because they're trying to pass this bill, okay, to end workplace abuse and have a law against the abusers. So when I spoke, I listened to end workplace abuse and have a law, you know, against the abusers. So, you know,

0:33:07
 (Janice Cardinale)
 when I spoke, I listened to other people's stories, and it was mind boggling to hear how people are being treated in the United States, you know. And I'm not saying that they're leaders or anything like that. They're just people, humans who are working in jobs where, honestly, the lies and the radical behavior of human beings to a boss to an employee is just horrific. And it's been going on for a very long time, this is not new, but it's it's been going on for a very long time. This is not new But it really opens your eyes and makes you think wow, you know

0:33:49
 (Janice Cardinale)
 like there are people that can be worse than you know a terrifying animal and I listened to that and it's Wow like oh my god, and we don't we don't see people are wearing masks in our industry. So if they're going through something with, you know, a form of narcissism in their in their leadership, it's a problem. And the girl in HR said, it's not always about, you

0:34:15
 (Janice Cardinale)
 know, I know that the HR is for the employer, not necessarily employee, but she's, she was always for both. She said there were situations that she had to, you know, do her due diligence and she got rid of leaders, you know, who were causing all the problems within an organization.

0:34:33
 (Janice Cardinale)
 Like, you know, they're the ones that, you know, try to stay under the radar, but there's a lot of, a lot of, as I said before, a lot of lies being told, you know, to pull themselves up. And I think that these days, leaders need to check their egos at the door. I think that they also have a responsibility to lead by virtue of being a coach, a mentor and a teacher.

0:35:02
 (Janice Cardinale)
 Not just somebody who controls what the end result is gonna be and not listen at all to the people who work for them, okay, on what maybe a better result could be. And I said recently in a post, I said, you know, the people who are working for us now,

0:35:21
 (Janice Cardinale)
 as an example, we're gonna be working for them in the future. I know it's hard, you know, as an example, we're going to be working for them in the future. I know it's hard, you know, it's funny, but I think the tables are really, we need the young people, because they're the ones that are going to teach us how to move our companies forward. I mean, they know more about AI than I ever will. So

0:35:44
 (Chris Dunn)
 I mean, I think and I don't know what the exact stats are, but I think within either 25 or 26, there will be more millennials and Gen Z in the workplace than there are Gen X and boomers, right? So they're this younger group is literally gonna, they are, now they are in buying positions,

0:36:01
 (Chris Dunn)
 they are leadership positions. And those of us who stick around in the workforce for a while, you're absolutely right. My boss, the CEO of my company, is a mid-30s young woman. And it's tremendous, because she leads in a very different way than her dad did before her.

0:36:22
 (Chris Dunn)
 Both awesome humans, but she brings a different flavor to it. So I took your survey. I work in a great culture within Blue Hive. We're not perfect, but I found myself feeling like I might skew the answers because I was like, by and large, things are really good. But I know they're not like that all over.

0:36:44
 (Speaker 8)
 No.

0:36:44
 (Chris Dunn)
 And we're at work. That's why we need lots of people to answer. good. But I know they're not, they're not like that all over. That's why we need lots of people to answer. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and you know, we're also, I'm just thinking about, you know, at the time of this recording, you know, this is a, this is not a worker's market, right? Jobs are, are few and far between. And I'm sure that there's a lot of people who will listen to this, who are out there who are in a situation where they wish they could walk out the door because they're tired of putting up with the BS or being treated like,

0:37:11
 (Chris Dunn)
 you know, like crap or whatever the case may be. But, but because there aren't a lot of other jobs that they can, that they can move to, they probably feel kind of trapped. Right. So this, you know, this is this information that you're working on is so critical, certainly. And that kind of takes me to my next question. So when you're kind of creating this curriculum, what does that look like? I know you're working with your associate and hopefully she's listening in.

0:37:38
 (Chris Dunn)
 I'm actually going to Montreal for a show next week, so I'll have to stop by McGill University and check in and see

0:37:45
 (Janice Cardinale)
 how the information is flowing. I can't tell you really what's going to go into this specific curriculum. I just know for me personally, I want to see, there's several ways that people can learn about, you know, how to frame things up as a leader, for example, and how you present, you know, and also how to respond to, you know, somebody who may be going through something that you have no idea about and may not even by the way, be something that was triggered in the workspace, it could be something they're bringing in from home.

0:38:26
 (Janice Cardinale)
 So there's all kinds of different reasons why people behave the way that they do. But I think that when people use emotional intelligence, there is a calmer way to create a culture where people feel safe to come and talk to you about something that's on their minds. If that culture is not created, then people just lock it in and work through it

0:38:55
 (Janice Cardinale)
 until they can find something better, to be honest with you, because most people would suggest that, why are you staying? And of course they're staying because they need the money, because they have food to put on their table, because they have a family at home that depends on them. But there are so many tips and tricks

0:39:12
 (Janice Cardinale)
 that will be provided in the curriculum to help people. I wrote actually about it this week, I compared mental health to the game of chess, and how you need mental strategy in mental health to the game of chess, you know, and how, you know, you need mental strategy and chess to play the game. But often, you know, the kings are the ones that always try to win the board. And it's, it's somewhat of a control game.

0:39:38
 (Janice Cardinale)
 So you know, I have, I have, you know, read so many different kinds of articles and there's so many ways in which we can train people in a integral way that they feel good about themselves. They feel empowered by the education to be able to go out there and work within a team. And I think that's very important.

0:40:03
 (Chris Dunn)
 Excellent. Very timely, very timely indeed. We're at the 40-minute mark and we aim for around 45 minutes or so, so we're doing great. I think we've had a tremendous conversation. You know, one little signature thing that we like to do, Janice, and you've shared so much already, so I'm not sure if there's more to, I mean, I'm sure you could talk for hours and hours on this passionate topic of yours,

0:40:28
 (Chris Dunn)
 but we'd like to kind of end with, three kind of key takeaways that you can leave our audience with. So whether it's something you've already discussed or you wanna kind of put a bow on some things or introduce a new idea,

0:40:40
 (Chris Dunn)
 but are there three kind of actionable items or takeaways that you could kind of leave our audience with?

0:40:46
 (Janice Cardinale)
 I think the first would be not to stay silent. I think silence is, you know, a demon to be honest with you. That people don't realize by being silent that they're not helping themselves or even helping the people that are committing, you know, the crime, so to speak. I think that there is a lot of information, certainly from Event Minds Matter, on tips of how to speak with people, how to protect yourself.

0:41:16
 (Janice Cardinale)
 A lot of what happens also has to do with the person. If the person doesn't want to learn anything new or change the circumstances of how they're feeling, that's a problem in itself, because you can bring a horse to water, you can't make a drink. So, you know, I think that also employers, leaders need to understand that with all of their budget cuts, cutting human training on something like this or not bringing it in at all is a huge mistake in today's day and age. We wouldn't be talking about this before COVID if it wasn't for COVID. But the thing is,

0:42:01
 (Janice Cardinale)
 is that it's funny how so much money is spent on, let's say, EAP and benefits. And when I spoke to the HR person yesterday, the one thing she said is, training is the most important thing that you could ever do with people. The amount of training that could be done and be successful would eliminate a lot of the benefits that people need. People, you know, companies are sinking a fortune into insurance, and I'm not taking anything away from insurance.

0:42:31
 (Janice Cardinale)
 But why don't we think clearly about if we could take some money and train everybody, okay, we wouldn't have the big expense of the benefits? Will people need as much therapy? I mean, if we're just gonna say, oh yeah, go see a therapist and you're coming back to the same workplace environment, that's not gonna help. So those are just a very few takeaways.

0:42:59
 (Janice Cardinale)
 But I think let's do something that's human focused. Let's prioritize our people first because people are gonna bring the profit. If every leader were to think, okay, profit, profit, profit, and you have to meet this goal, okay,

0:43:21
 (Janice Cardinale)
 how do they meet the goal when they're not well? How do they meet the goal when they're not well? How do they meet the goal when they're keeping everything inside because they're so scared of their reputation and saying anything about it? The whole point of this is to get people talking,

0:43:35
 (Janice Cardinale)
 is to create conversation, communication, and to make people feel like they belong to something. So I've read enough stories like you guys have about connection, belonging, and this and that and the other thing, you know, but how come companies are still in the same circumstances

0:43:54
 (Janice Cardinale)
 and people feel the way they do to this day? You know, because not enough people are doing it.

0:44:00
 (Chris Dunn)
 Yeah, and you bring up a really great point. It's kind of like proactively, you know, like proactively taking, and mental health is obviously part of our overall health, but taking a proactive approach to working out and watching what we eat and so forth is the best way to keep ourselves from needing to go to the doctor all the time or needing to be in the hospital. This is almost no different at all, right? It's like doing that work ahead of

0:44:25
 (Chris Dunn)
 time so that you don't end up, you know, needing, needing insurance, you know, to, because you're, because you need, you need to talk to that, that therapist all the time. Yeah. So, and, and, you know, for, for those, you know, folks who may be tuning in that are business owners, when you think about like, what does it cost when you lose a valuable employee? You know, what's the cost of that person, whether it was, yeah, quote, unquote, burnout, or, or they just, you know, got to a point where they were so frustrated that they had to kind of walk out the door and

0:44:57
 (Chris Dunn)
 and get a reset on their life, you know, replacing a valuable employee like that is is extremely disruptive to a company and extremely costly to try to find the right person to fill that slot. So when we think about managing that human capital and giving our people the tools that they need to manage what they're feeling, right? Like to your point, Janice, like that seems like money well spent.

0:45:22
 (Janice Cardinale)
 Exactly. I agree with you and it is, it really is. It's such a simple, easy thing to do that I can't believe how hard it's taken and how long it's taken me to get to this point. There's been so much pushback.

0:45:41
 (Janice Cardinale)
 And you know what I really feel is that I think that leadership is afraid. I think there's fear on both sides of the table. The elders in our event industry or whatever part of the industry, trade show, conference, hospitality, whatever it is, have not been taught emotional intelligence.

0:46:00
 (Janice Cardinale)
 They're elders. I know that I was never taught when I was, you know, of high school or university age. And I took the course much later in life because I was curious and I wanted to understand how to frame up things in business. So, you know, I don't blame them sometimes for the fear that they have. But I also say to them, you know, since you're here and you're staying, and why are they staying?

0:46:27
 (Janice Cardinale)
 Because, you know, unfortunately, they took out mortgages on their houses and at their banks for their businesses, and they're forced to stay longer than retirement age. A lot of the elders in this industry would have been long gone, happily, okay,

0:46:43
 (Janice Cardinale)
 because they've spent their years, but they have to stay. So how can elders and young people work together in an environment where everybody benefits and the company benefits in moving forward from an understanding that everybody is well and the talent is being well used and they're well

0:47:06
 (Janice Cardinale)
 appreciated. I think the biggest thing that young people tell me is they feel that they're unappreciated, that they're not being respected. And yes, young people have their shtick, you know, and I use that word loosely, you know, but if you're a good leader, and you understand that you, you know, as opposed to like just managing them, okay, or giving somebody else the job to manage them, are you really teaching them and coaching them and mentoring them? You know, today, now there are more mentors than ever before. People in this industry are looking for that. And there are organizations and associations within this industry that really propel that

0:47:48
 (Janice Cardinale)
 and say how important it is. I have somebody right now I'm mentoring, she's a solopreneur, which by the way, that's another thing that's on the rise, solopreneurship, because these are young people who want to start up their own businesses,

0:48:03
 (Janice Cardinale)
 but they've also come from bad situations in corporate and they don't want to have that kind of environment or space again. They wanna be in comfortable, honest places. So, it's a very like secular kind of thing. And a lot of what goes on is systemic.

0:48:24
 (Janice Cardinale)
 It's hard to keep it down.

0:48:28
 (Chris Dunn)
 Yeah. Well, I mean, shining a light on it and getting people talking about it is obviously how we're ultimately going to arrive at a solution for this and fix it. So this has been an awesome conversation. I appreciate both of you guys coming to the table. We like to certainly have fun and typically kind of keep it light here. This is a little heavier, but it's absolutely something we need to talk about and making sure that we're all in a good mental health

0:48:56
 (Speaker 7)
 space.

0:48:57
 (Janice Cardinale)
 Let's try to make it lighter.

0:49:00
 (Chris Dunn)
 Yeah, exactly. Before we wrap up, what's Janice, what's the best way for people who are sitting there thinking, I really need to get more Janice Cardinale in my life, or I need to get a hold of her and learn more about this. What's the best way to reach out and contact you?

0:49:18
 (Janice Cardinale)
 Over LinkedIn, either on my personal LinkedIn or on Event Minds Matter. I mean, on both places, I write about this entire situation from various different points of view. But I am an open door. I don't say no to anybody unless they're trying to sell me something I don't need.

0:49:39
 (Speaker 5)
 Right?

0:49:40
 (Janice Cardinale)
 And it happens a lot.

0:49:43
 (Speaker 6)
 So, anyways.

0:49:44
 (Janice Cardinale)
 Awesome. Awesome. Right? And it happens a lot.

0:49:47
 (Chris Dunn)
 Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Brendon. Always a pleasure to have you on board. We're actually just a little teeing up a little focus for next week. We got another Canadian joining us like two weeks in a row. Evan Babbins is going to join us next week.

0:50:04
 (Chris Dunn)
 And Brendon will again be in the hot seat, the co-host seat. So thanks to both of you guys. You've made for a tremendous conversation today, super important topic that we all need to kind of make sure that we're not brushing under the rug. And with that, we'll say goodbye

0:50:23
 (Chris Dunn)
 and happy eventing out there, everybody. Enjoy the rest of your Thursday, the rest of your week. And again, thanks so much for tuning in and cheers to both you guys. Appreciate you very much.

0:50:34
 (Brendon Hamlin)
 Thank you.

0:50:35
 (Speaker 5)
 Bye.

0:50:36
 (Chris Dunn)
 Take care. Take care.

0:50:37
 (Speaker 4)
 Bye-bye.