EMT #55 with Chris Dorn - Inside the Asia-Pacific Exhibit Market

In this episode of Event Marketer’s Toolbox, hosts Chris Dunn and Dana Esposito sit down with Christopher Dorn, Managing Director of Idea International, to explore what it really takes to produce trade show programs across the Asia-Pacific region.

With nearly three decades in the industry and over half his career spent living and working in Japan, Dorn brings a rare perspective on global exhibitions—from cultural differences in business decision-making to the logistical realities that Western exhibitors often overlook.

The conversation begins with Dorn’s unlikely path into the trade show industry—starting in exhibit design in the Midwest before moving to Japan, where he eventually built his own business supporting global exhibitors entering the Asia-Pacific market. From those early days navigating language barriers and building a professional network from scratch, Dorn learned a key lesson that still shapes his work today: success in international exhibitions starts with curiosity and adaptability.

As the conversation unfolds, the hosts dig into the operational and cultural nuances of exhibiting outside North America. Dorn explains how decision-making in countries like Japan often relies on consensus rather than the fast-moving, individual-driven approach common in the U.S. Understanding these dynamics can mean the difference between a smooth project and a frustrating one.

The discussion also highlights how trade shows themselves differ across markets. In Japan, for example, exhibitions often function more like relationship-building festivals—what Dorn describes as matsuri—rather than high-pressure sales environments. Companies attend to strengthen networks, build trust, and move conversations forward over time rather than expecting immediate deals.

Beyond culture, Dorn walks through the practical considerations that American exhibitors must navigate when bringing a booth program overseas—from structural limitations and venue infrastructure to production methods and storage costs. Many exhibitors assume they can replicate their North American booth designs globally, but Dorn warns that assumptions are the fastest way to run into problems.

Ultimately, the episode is both a strategic and tactical guide for anyone considering international exhibitions. Whether it’s understanding local expectations, adapting designs to venue constraints, or building the right partnerships on the ground, Dorn emphasizes that preparation and communication are critical.

For event professionals exploring the Asia-Pacific region, this conversation offers a rare behind-the-scenes look at how global exhibition programs actually come together.

👉🏼 Join us for more insightful discussions like this by tuning into 'Event Marketer's Toolbox,' where industry leaders share the tools, tactics, and trends driving success in the event world.

This Show is sponsored by Blue Hive 

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Transcript

0:00:00

No pressure. 

0:00:02

Hey, hello and welcome. 

0:00:03

This is Chris Dunn. I'm with Blue Hive Exhibits. We are here on the Event Marketers Toolbox, and I got a couple of friends. We're going to have an amazing chat today. Glad you tuned in and can't wait to get started. So first, I'm going to kick it over to my co -host, Dana Esposito, EVP of Strategy here at Blue Hive. 

0:00:20

Hey, Dana, how's it going? 

0:00:22

Good, good, good. 

0:00:23

Two Chris's today. 

0:00:24

Two CDs. 

0:00:27

Makes it difficult when you're emailing us. 

0:00:30

Well, I sometimes do call people by their last name and it startles them, but I grew up in construction where that was very normal. 

0:00:39

But I'm like a short female in business and I think people look at me when I do it and they think I mean a jerk, but I literally am used to doing people like calling them by the last name. It's not, I'm not trying to be anything. It's just normal, but it doesn't, it doesn't float well. 

0:00:54

So you're like, hey, done. You got an answer for that? 

0:00:57

Exactly. 

0:00:58

Fortunately, they sound pretty similar to people like, who's this little girl thinks she is, you know? Anyway. So, yes, I'm Dana Sposito. I work with Chris Dunn at Blue Hive. I've been in the industry almost 30 years on the creative side and also corporate strategy and as a client advocate. And I am very excited because today we're talking to Christopher Dorn, who I've known for a long time. 

0:01:23

And he's, this guy has gotten around. And so it's really exciting to kind of hear his background, which we'll get into. But Chris Dorn, could you introduce yourself to our audience? 

0:01:35

Yeah. 

0:01:35

Hey, everybody. 

0:01:36

My name is Christopher Dorn. I'm the Managing Director of Idea International, currently based in Osaka, Japan. So it's really late here. And so it's really late on that side. But yes, I've been also in the industry almost 30 years. And originally from Iowa, I went to school up in Bemidji State, which is in northern Minnesota in the Klondike 

0:02:00

as we call it, in Minnesota. And I have been all over the place, a lot of places, but we can chat about that a little bit on how I was able to make it out to the land of the rising sun and what's been happening lately. So thanks for having me. 

0:02:19

Awesome. 

0:02:20

We have a common friend, Stephen Benedetti. He lives in Germany. Similar situation to Chris, an American born guy, been in Germany for 25 years. And we had Stephen on the podcast back in November, I think it was. And it was just a really cool conversation because I know hopefully there's a lot of folks who are going to see this who are exhibitors, exhibit managers, you know, in the U . S. 

0:02:43

and they know what they know about the U . S. , but they don't necessarily have a lot of understanding of, you know, all of the things that happen when you go to do a show in a foreign land and you don't know a lot of the landscape, there's a lot of things that might surprise you. So we're gonna kind of dive into a lot of that stuff. 

0:03:02

We're gonna let Dana start off with the inquisition, as it were, all these questions, but we're gonna learn a little bit about Chris's past, because it is a really interesting story. And if he doesn't get to say it, Chris, you're six, seven, six, eight, something. 

0:03:16

No, but I haven't called Godzilla a couple of times here. 

0:03:20

Okay, so you're in a land where people are primarily shorter and dark haired, you're a lighter haired, a Caucasian male that towers over most everybody. Yeah, I had a couple of clients many years ago say to me, do you know that guy that's in the tide commercial? And I said, What are you talking about? I was like, yeah, there's this guy in a tight commercial. He's probably about six, six, you know, and he's he's walking through Japan. 

0:03:42

And do you know him? 

0:03:44

Because, you know, Because you are. Are you that man? I am not. But no, I mean, from an expat side, there really is not. I can't remember the exact figure, the number. expats in Japan, but it's actually quite small. 

0:03:57

I want to say that I believe American -wise, it's a few tens of thousands, but it's not that many. 

0:04:05

I mean, outside of the military bases in Wodhat and those expats, but people that actually live and work in Japan, it's actually not that many. 

0:04:13

So, yeah. 

0:04:14

as a very short person, I some of your height. No, with a lot of uncomfortabl So yeah, yeah, yeah, true. Very long to come out to Asia, by the way. And I think that's a lot of things that people have misunderstood, or at least just don't from a geography standpoint, because we had one client fly over from the East Coast directly into Tokyo. And it's like 13 and a half hours. I think they actually flew out of Logan as well. 

0:04:48

So Boston, where you guys are at. 

0:04:51

And they were like, I don't want to do that again. 

0:04:54

I thought it would have been more than 13. 

0:04:57

It's always, it's always. 

0:04:59

Okay. 

0:05:00

All right. Yeah. So Christopher Dorn, um, I mean, so many people in the industry know you, you know, for, for what you're doing now. Right. But let's back up to where it all started in the States. And let's give us like that true foundation of what your early career in the U S was, and then how you just ended up going to build a business and live in Japan. 

0:05:23

Um, because. what's amazing for someone like me, even though like I'm, I'm fluent in designing and managing exhibits in overseas, you're, you literally have been boots on the ground to the point where you multiple languages and such a diverse, like, not say like, some people think exhibiting overseas, they think Europe, right. And you're like, everywhere, you've been Singapore, I mean, just everywhere, a lot of Asian countries, people like countries where I think you're your knowledge base is so important if some people are exhibiting some of these countries for the first time because the rules are so different. They're in taxes and everything's different. 

0:06:03

So I think there's going to be a lot of interesting stuff you can bring to the audience to really help educate and prepare them for what some of those things they'll encounter are and why it's so great to, you know, make sure you partner with people to help you with those things. So let's back up and start with when you were in the States, your foundation in the industry, like how you even got into this industry. OK, so going back, my father was a mechanical testing engineer at John Deere. So I'm originally an Iowa boy. So I grew up in the Midwest, you know, the land between two rivers and not much else. So with that, I my father was very much curious and, you know, had also had an industrial tech teaching degree. 

0:06:51

And so I was exposed to CAD, CAM, various programs during the mid 80s. And so we're talking way back even before Windows 95, Windows 3 .1 and all that other stuff. And so I was able to actually play around and draw. And so I actually enjoyed cabinetry and millworking and stuff. So I used to I used to be the local kid that would build all the skateboard ramps. So when I was, you know, into skateboarding quite a bit from, you know, like 85 to 88 or what have you, then I was building all the half pipes and the quarter pipes and everything like that. 

0:07:31

And so I would draw up skate parks and do all this kind of stuff. And I thought, this is kind of fun. It's pretty interesting. So from that age, then I started to basically think like, wow, OK, this is kind of cool. I can draw. And when I draw, 

0:07:45

I can make. So what comes out of your brain and the thought can come like a reality. And then so going through high school, do not want to relive those years. But anyway, that being said, my dad, since he had that industrial tech background, he was you know, very Mankato state and, you know, a few places in Wisconsin, as well as in northern Minnesota. And so he introduced, you know, me, he said, hey, would you like to, you know, try out Bemidji? And so we went to Missouri, I went to Champaign -Urbana to the University of Illinois, and I went to various, you know, schools in the United States, excuse me, in Iowa. 

0:08:25

So not much was happening. And then we went up to Bemidji. And And I had a chance to tour and get a chance to meet Kermit, who was one of the founders of the Design and Technology Program at Bemidji State. And so Jim McCracken was one of my mentors up there. And so this would put me at 95. And so I ended up going to school up there. 

0:08:52

And then he actually, Jim said to me, Dr. McCracken, he was like, you know, this is like a very unknown industry. This is what we call like even back then. So it's 95. He says it's often known as the invisible industry. Nobody knows about it. Nobody knows what goes and is involved or surrounding an exhibition. 

0:09:12

Like how's a booth get set up? You know, you've heard about like a science fair, but how about the other side of it where you've got like an auto show or something that's quite larger? Well, there's a lot of things that happen behind the scenes and a lot of teams that make that happen. There's also creative elements into it that's tied into marketing and everything. So I was sold. I mean, I was like, wow, this is great. 

0:09:31

And then the other thing that was really big was they had 100 percent placement. So literally, you know, companies would basically either up, not as much them, but they would fly, you know, students down to Dallas to work for, you know, GES or Exhibit Group Giltsburg, do their modeling program, just a number of things. And then that kind of, that grew from there. And so after, you know, I was close to graduation, I had to find an internship. And so, you know, I had gone down, gone back home, and then I went to Chicago and I met with, you know, a half a dozen exhibit houses. 

0:10:07

And I went up to Milwaukee and I met with the creative director at the time, Russ Fowler. And so Russ, you know, basically brought me under his wing, him, John Horn, the team up in Milwaukee, where their headquarters were at that time in Wauwatosa. And so, which was just, you know, west of downtown Milwaukee in their old facility when it was known as Dursey Sines. And so, yeah, that's how I got started. That's 98. And after that, I went south to Chicago because my girlfriend at the time, who was Japanese, really need to find a job. 

0:10:45

And there wasn't hardly any Japanese companies in the Wisconsin, Milwaukee area, but there were a lot more in Chicago. So you have Palatine, you had a lot of, you know, a lot of manufacturing and things down in the Chicago area. So because of that, that kind of pushed me. And so I ended up then looking for work down in the Chicago area and ended up getting a job at Exhibit Group Giltspur. Then GES, now known as Spyro, Spiro, etc and so that's pretty much where I got it started and then maybe probably around you know 2000 early 2000 kind of started to get antsy because for our time off my you know my girlfriend at the time you know we were going to Japan every year and I ended up meeting some of the partners that Exhibit Group Giltspur had. 

0:11:43

So this is going way back and where the international scene was even much smaller. And so if you knew somebody, it's like that word of mouth was really, really important. I mean, you were, you know, email was in its infancy. I mean, FedEx was like really important, UB FedEx and CDs. And that kind of segues into after I landed in Japan. But we planned it for about a year and a half or so. 

0:12:09

And we basically got tired of living in the Midwest. So we thought about living in California, maybe nicer weather or what have you. And we just kept going. So I just kept on going west to make to the east. And so we ended up We ended up selling everything we had, got rid of our cars, you know, car life or what have you. Kept our two cats, you know, cats became really expensive. 

0:12:38

We got them at the Humane Society and then turns out that to import or to bring in a cat into Japan was about $900 a cat. Your free cats turned into not free cats. Yeah, they were. Yeah. So they became so that was Mooney and Pumbaa. And so they actually got quarantined for three weeks at the airport. 

0:13:02

But it was, you know, a lot behind that. So I had to go to USDA. I had to have certain vaccinations and everything else and certain stamps I'd never even heard of before. And so we brought them and and basically started out. And so I didn't have a job or anything. And And so I was literally, you know, got a computer. 

0:13:24

Basically, I realized, you know, what the hell did I get into? Because I went into the neighborhood bakery, and I started talking to the woman in English, and she just looked at me like, what? You know, and then I realized, oh, crap, they don't speak English. My Japanese is not that good. So it was kind of like a really quick, you know, initiation by fire. 

0:13:46

But anyway, so I had lived with, you know, it's getting really personal, but that's fine. My in -laws, you know, agreed to take us in until we got settled or what have you. And so I ended up living, my wife and I at that time, so we were married now. And so we were two months into it. And I had been emailing late nights, talking to as many people as I could, very hard because, you know, internet wasn't in English, it was in Japanese. Japanese wasn't that good. 

0:14:19

And so we had this big conversation, you know, like big family get together, got to have a family meeting. And her father, my father -in -law basically said, you know, if you can't get a job, Chris, you know, I think you probably should go back. And literally, like there was a guardian angel showed up. So there was a manila envelope that showed up in the postbox to the mailbox, and it was an offer to come down for an interview to teach English. And they were looking for candidates that had a four year degree or what have you, foreigners, native English speakers, whatnot. And so I went down for the interview. 

0:15:03

But before that, there was a big conversation. I didn't come here to teach English, but it's life and get a job because my wife already had job offers and everything. And she's bilingual. So it wasn't a problem. So I went down, took the job, you know, and then I end up teaching English for about a year and a half just to get going. And the thing that killed it was, you know, 

0:15:24

teaching kids. 

0:15:26

So that, that really, that really just, you know, put me over the edge. 

0:15:30

I was like, no, I can't do this. But during that time, you still agreed to have kids after, after, yeah. Yeah. So, But it was really interesting because I had a chance to meet so many people when I was teaching English. I met people that were university students, high school students, different backgrounds. I learned a lot in that time frame about Japanese culture and just have open conversations during lessons and everything else. 

0:16:06

So during that time, though, I was doing that part -time and, you know, that was in the evenings. And then during the daytime, I got a chance to build up my network. And so I had a chance to work with, you know, companies like let's see off the top of my head, RTKL, Gensler. There was a few, you know, larger ad agencies that I was working with as well from a freelance standpoint. And then I got hooked up again with Exhibit Group's partner in Japan. And so Kenta brought me in as a project manager. 

0:16:39

And so I was working more full time in that regard. And it was a little bit different because I took my skills that I had from, you know, a design background and just being able to communicate with American clients for shows in Japan. And then he would teach me about all the ins and outs about doing shows in Japan. And so I did that for, you know, about I want to say about two years. And I really saw There was a niche and sorry to be long winded about this, but there was really a niche within the Japan at that time. Very few Westerners were in this industry. 

0:17:16

Very few. I knew like maybe three. you know, had different interesting backgrounds. Frank was from Nigeria, you know, Garrett was from Germany or what have you. And they were OSPI members actually. So, you know, shout out to Expo International, but that's where I, excuse me, I had met some other foreigners and I just knew that this is really, you know, I think something that could probably start my own company. 

0:17:43

And so I started in 2004 and that's really how it, you know, kicked off and, you know, starting out in company is just a really big leap of faith. 

0:17:53

And it was really rough for the first three years, but then had a couple of really good opportunities that came up. And that was because of going to the exhibitor show and just doing the network, et cetera. So, yeah. So it's really interesting, your story, because, you know, being involved with EVPA, we talked about, you know, not just designers in that industry, coming in and being successful, but also designers who maybe they're also really good communicators or they're really organized or whatever. They have additional skill sets, right? And so they all, as they go through their career, they transfer over into other roles. 

0:18:30

Could be a project manager, could be an account manager. I know designers that have become account executives, you know, salespeople. And then, you know, there are some that have ended up owning companies. Like I think Steve Deckel is a design background, right? I'm not sure why I think that, but I think that's his MO. So whether the role is design or something else, when we also talk to like future leaders or future workforce, we try to explain that not only this invisible industry is a place where you can make a career and support your family, support your life and feed your passions, But there's growth, right? 

0:19:10

You don't have to stay in one lane, although you can stay in one lane and be awesome, kick the crap out of it. it. That's perfectly fine. 

0:19:17

And not only are you a really good example of that, going from exhibit design to project management, and then company owner, you also have this whole other layer of the international part of it, which adds, I think, not only interest, but it's scary. It's very overwhelming to someone thinking, I'm not only going to start my own company, you know, you're doing it in you're dealing with different languages and different countries. And, you know, in the States, we talk about going to shows and dealing with different states that have different tax. issues right well you're dealing with different countries so that's a so many other levels of um it can seem scary or intimidate you and you were still able to do it just this really impressive and i appreciate the fact that um you're probably like oh shit and you did it anyway you know i think that's what it's important is you people plow through and do it anyway So seeing what this foundation is and now you realize you're going to build your business in Japan, can you talk to us a little bit because I think the audience of trade show event managers or people on our side, the provider side, talk a little bit when it talks to like cultural adjustments, specifically when it comes to like the business mindset and maybe like lessons you've learned launching in a new country. That's a great question. The first thing that I can say about Japan is that the way they approach and solve problems is totally 180 degrees to how we would approach it in the West. 

0:20:54

Specifically, if you have a problem, it's more of a, and not just in Japan, but also in like Korea and China, there's more of a group mentality. I would say there's kind of a getting a consensus on what makes the most sense. There's more of a little bit, you know, a synergy in that regard. And I don't know if it's because more, you know, homogeneous or what have you. But, you know, that was one of the biggest frustrations that I had was like, why don't you do it this way? What's wrong with doing it this way without and just going all in? 

0:21:28

versus, you know, like, well, what are the other particular options that we have? Or what does this particular person think? Like this, you know, division manager or what have you, or what does this person have to say, you know, and, and do they, what do they bring to the table? That was, you know, really rough. It's still really rough right now. I mean, to be honest, because there, I have to say, just being very honest, that just from experiencing living in Australia, living in Spain, and just, you know, here in Asia, that the US, I have to say, has one of the most open -minded kind of can -do attitudes of any country. 

0:22:08

Because, or why not? A why not type of, you know, thinking. It's like, you know, how are we going to do this and try to come up with a solution? Whereas, you know, you know, sometimes in Japan, like this project that we're working on right now is a retail installation. And the client is from the US and they want to do this and this and we had a we had a meeting this morning and there was like, it's like 27 people on the call or whatever. So but there was a big sticking point because they wanted a certain type of ups like a power system that was bigger than, for their servers and stuff, that was bigger than what was provided here. 

0:22:48

And it just became like a really big hiccup with the entire flow. And that just threw a, like a cog, you know, a wrench into the entire system. And that's something that's, you know, still I'm learning to this day about like how to kind of navigate the water. you know with my team it's like what can we say let's follow the hierarchy because there's a lot of hierarchy as well and you get that anywhere but the reality is is this kind of goes to the next level I mean almost military side and I you know I still work around those things but you know it's just trial and error and say, one of the things that helps me out quite a bit is, and it kind of gets people invigorated. It doesn't matter if it's in Japan, it gets them, you know, kind of exciting, like a challenge is I'll tell a shop, you know, it's like, you know, let's do this. 

0:23:40

And they push back and they say, well, we can't do that. 

0:23:44

I mean, how, you know, we've never done that before. 

0:23:47

How can we do it? 

0:23:48

And so I basically show them a photo and it's like, well, they can do it here. Why can't they be done? Well, that pisses them off. Yeah. I'm not going to be up on what I can do in my skill levels to a carpenter. Nope, ain't happening. 

0:24:06

So they're like, yeah, we can. OK, well, let's think about it. And then they'll basically go back to the drawing board and they'll come back to the solution. It's like, OK, we can't do this, but let's try this. And you're going to get the same effect. So there's a lot of that. 

0:24:17

And I'll get that across the board throughout the Asia -Pacific region. I mean, it doesn't matter if it's Singapore. It doesn't matter. Even Australia. I mean, I threw the Aussies for a loop a few years ago on, you know, a custom aluminum, you know, type of solution with, you know, like SCG, like zipper pillowcase. And they were just like, oh, Mike, you know, we can't do that. 

0:24:37

And it's like, well, I just think about it. 

0:24:39

So then they ended up, you know, you know, figuring it out and then talk to some people and challenge them. So we get out of their comfort zone. And I'm, you know, not to try to toot my own horn or whatever, but you know, I like a challenge. And that's what makes it interesting. I mean, it sounds like you have to be really good. You have to have really good people. 

0:25:00

So and communicate well, because on one hand, like I could very well see how I was raised very like, well, what if, well, we can like over the top, right? I mean, I'm a small female thinks I can do anything. And physically, I literally can't. But in my head, I still I can imagine overseas, they would be like, all right, you need to back back up. So I can imagine that if you really good people skills and what I mean by that not just communication I mean like reading reading them to understand their cultural background like their cultural perception of how they Want to communicate and work on something together and it's not that us We don't do things as a team and stuff but their their mindsets very different like we can come across very pushy and But we think we're being direct and clear and transparent. 

0:25:52

And they're like, you are just way too much. You need to settle down. You're overwhelming. 

0:25:58

You're too much. 

0:26:00

So I think being able to read those people, read the room, and switch your Switch your language. I don't mean your little language coming out of your mouth I mean like with the words you're putting together to get them to be a board so that they are Open then to what you're bringing to the table I can see that being a huge asset like you can't just go in thinking I'm just gonna plow my way through because then you're not you're not gonna have people gonna work want to work with you and I think that's the magic of someone in your your company and in your role and in the different countries you've lived and worked in is you need to be able to get people to to work with you to want to work with you and not be you're not like um abrasive you know you're you're actually looking at them and going i'm not gonna try to make them think the way i think exactly i'm gonna i'm gonna reposition i'm gonna reframe what i'm doing to them so that we're all that they're open to what I'm saying, you know So that that takes some really good people skills as well, what would you say is? Surprised you most about operating like an Asia Pacific taking all this type of stuff in consideration. Is that a little squeaky toy? Yeah Yeah, one of the one of the interesting things that I learned, and you know, it happened recently with just a few years ago in 2019, the Rugby World Cup swung through Japan. 

0:27:34

And we were contacted by a couple of, you know, large sport event agencies, and they had asked us to, you know, work on a pavilion. And the lead project manager, who was based in Europe, He had actually come out with his team and had drawings and renderings and everything else and a very sizable budget, multi -million dollar, multi -million euro budget. And he said, Chris, I don't understand the people in Japan. Japan is the only country in the world where I could have a bag of money and people run away. And it's true. I mean, with the lack of How should I say, the loss of face in Asia and many parts of Asia, the loss of face or just taking a risk is really, you know, it's more risk averse because you just don't want to, you know, fail and lose face. 

0:28:36

And I know it's said a lot and thrown around a lot, but losing faces is huge. And to your point about, you know, changing the language and how your tone you come across, there's a lot of tongue in cheek. I mean, sometimes I can be really forward and it's like, why can't you do this? And then I will show them and back it up with examples and say, here, look, look at this. What do you think? 

0:29:03

Please study this a little bit more and see if you can come back to me. And if it's really too difficult, then we'll think about it. But I'm giving you this opportunity to do this. there's a lot of tongue in cheek, there's a lot of balancing act, you know, it's trying not to be, you know, as an abrasive or very pushy American or what have you. 

0:29:23

And, you know, that really takes sometimes, you know, gritting your teeth and sucking it up and, you know, trying to, you know, come up with a solution. But, you know, in the end, we're all just kind of working together to try to, you know, succeed and make sure that our client is happy. I know, and they come away, you know, you know, exceedingly happy and get a pat on the back. And that's a great, great feeling. 

0:29:45

It's like, man, this turned out really well. 

0:29:48

So that's interesting, because I actually I know a gentleman from I don't want to bring up his name just because I don't if he hears this I don't want him to think I'm saying this in a bad way because I'm not but like there was something we were working on with him and he's from Asia and he was trying to help us with something and it was literally just like a bonus it was fluff it wasn't anything like It's not that it didn't matter. It was really just like a thing of goodwill. And he wasn't able to make it come to fruition. And I was like, I appreciate so much that you tried. That was wonderful. And he was like, I and deeply upset. 

0:30:28

I am so sorry. Like, it was like an honor thing, right? And so I'm picking up what you're saying about how some people in Asia, it's really ingrained with them, like that failure is, it's part of their persona. to the point where it's disgraceful somehow, right? And they do not want to fail, so sometimes change or doing things different or whatever is in their mind is setting themselves up for that, right? I am one of those absolute Americans that as much as I don't want to fail, I'm not afraid of failing because I would have rather tried and failed than not try it at all. 

0:31:10

And I think that is not the case, you know, in eastern parts of the world. I like that you bring that up because it's a really good point. Even if I'm just thinking of myself as a designer, not someone who's doing strategy or whatever, but just in the way of design, if you're a designer and you're working with an overseas client and you're like, oh, this would be great and this is why, and maybe you're pushing the envelope a little bit for them for all the right reasons and they're not comfortable with it, it helps to understand why that is for them. you know and then to your point if it's important enough for that designer to be like no I really think this is you need to do this to to switch your how you're translating to them by showing them examples maybe even other people who have done it or how it's been done for them to start to feel comfortable that it's not so risky, right? Where I, as I guess I keep saying as American, but it's not just America, I think there are other countries too that like, I'm willing to take the risk because it's not a gamble. It's been calculated, like I did my research. 

0:32:13

Could I fail? Yes, but I'm still going to do it anyway, because I think it's worth it. 

0:32:16

Like, there's a very good chance this will succeed. 

0:32:19

And it will move my company forward or I'll get more clients or whatever. I'll move further in my career, whatever it is. So I think that's really interesting. And like you said, you figured out the ways to make them feel more comfortable starting to move into different directions for all the right reasons. Yeah, definitely. I mean, agreed on all those points. 

0:32:40

So to kind of circle back just a little bit about like the 180 comment about how it's done, you know, specifically talking about Japan. Let's say there's a, you have a project and there's a lead and this particular, you know, marketing director or what have you has an idea with their program and they really want to do it. And so, they will then be kind of like the main point and then they will direct it and say, okay, they're going to say go. Whereas in Japan, you might have an idea and it's floated, but it's, you know, I think in the US and in Western countries as well, it's also floated around. It's like, how is this going to work? Get some input from everybody. 

0:33:27

But it seems to be more of a consensus before it's actually implemented and it says go. And so you have more of a consensus, and you have more of a group, you know, decision -making process. 

0:33:43

Now, there still is probably somebody, you know, that you're trying to find them. 

0:33:47

You're not sure who's writing the check, you know, who has the purse strings. 

0:33:52

But, you know, for the most part, you know, just to have that consensus. And it also minimizes a lot of the risk, too, because then doesn't become like a finger pointing situation if there is failure. 

0:34:03

And it's like, Oh, that's all your fault. Right? 

0:34:05

It's kind of gets spread out a little bit. And then I have a perfect example of that, Chris. So about 20 years ago, I was different company I was working at, and we were working on a client, Asian clients, and they were like, we don't know. We don't know. We don't know. Um, can, can you fly down to Dallas? 

0:34:28

Cause we'll all be there and we'll have a working meeting. So I went down with the AE, literally like I'm designing a front of them, like it's up on the screen. So there are about 12 Asian men and one Australian man, myself and the account executive. And I moved stuff around over and over again. At the end of the meeting, it was a seven hour meeting, seven hours. 

0:34:49

And they were like, yes, it's perfect. It was the exact same as when we... But they had to decide it together. 

0:35:01

to what Chris Dorn's saying, to feel confident that it was the right decision in front of each other. 

0:35:07

For them, that was important, part of their process. Where I flew back going, I don't know if I helped. It's the exact same. 

0:35:14

But to them, it did. 

0:35:16

Yeah. That cultural thing. It's a cultural business thing. So strategically, it was the right thing to do. Yeah. And not only that, but, you know, you have the basically you went there. 

0:35:30

you met with them face -to -face. 

0:35:32

You dedicated your own time, you know, and to meet with them face -to -face. 

0:35:37

And even now, there's nothing like meeting face -to -face. The nuances, the, you know, gestures, just, you know, everything. And in Japan, one of, one of, our old colleagues that was here, he actually worked for a big sporting goods store. And he told me one of the really interesting things about the trade show industry between the United States and in Japan is the fact that, you know, the U . S. is huge. 

0:36:04

You have to put in the time, effort and the money to fly to a show. So it really is worthwhile. Right. So your time is very valuable and what have you. Now, when he received a call from a customer in Japan, because it's really, you know, From north to south, you can get there three and a half hours by plane. It's easy in Japan to jump on a train. 

0:36:30

a bullet train or a plane and then be in front of the customer that same day. That's actually even happened or the next day and it's still to this day very easy. Case in point for this retail installation up in Omotesando in Tokyo. You know, it's like, hey, we should probably have a meeting. So the GC wanted to have a meeting to talk about, you know, these fixtures that we're installing and everything. it's like, hey, why don't we just have a meeting? 

0:36:57

I'll just come up and then we'll just explain. And then we're literally, we're sketching out like how we're going to do this, you know, and stuff. And it was very much me getting the kids off to school, you know, going to the train station, two and a half hour ride on the bullet train, the Shinkansen, you know, getting into Tokyo at one o 'clock and meeting with them for the whole afternoon and then just working it out. But I mean, it just, you know, that type of peace of mind. So what he said was it's just very easy to get around Japan. you do not see actually, this kind of little sidebar, but you don't see as much of a huge spend in Japan on exhibitions. 

0:37:40

It's kind of what they call a Japanese matsuri, which is kind of like a party, if you will, or a festival. And so, you know, they don't spend, they're not showing their latest and greatest, their top secret stuff because, you know, they're just kind of showing off and they're getting together. 

0:37:54

I mean, they're still networking and communicating and maybe they'll have like, you know, A, B and C, coming into your stand, your booth, and if the C -level executive or somebody that's lower down finds some really interesting information, then they'll pass it up the chain. And then maybe later on in the show, like by the third day, you might have a higher -level executive that says, hey, I want to learn more, and then set up another meeting, and then you're off to the races. But yeah, it's a little bit like that. in that regard from both the business standpoint, how decisions are made, you know, et cetera, et cetera. It's, it's a lot, it's a lot, but I've been here now for, you know, years, you know, I've been here half of my life. And so, yeah, it's, A lot, a lot is learned. 

0:38:44

Knowledge is power. And I really, I understand that now. So very specific set of skills as Liam Neeson once said. Hey, let's let's take a quick break and just talk about our sponsors that that enable us to have these great conversations and make this show happen. So as mentioned, Dana and I work for Blue Hive Exhibits. We are a 21 year old creative agency. 

0:39:04

We're based out of Worcester, Mass., which is about an hour west of Boston. We also have within the last several years built out a fully owned um las vegas subsidi design build uh do all th and really kind of servi west coast from there. Um fit for a lot of differen We don't, we aren't, you We're not only medical, w But we're not a fit for everybody. We understand that. We tend to be a little bit on the higher end from a cost standpoint, because we're very customer service focused. We're very design centric. 

0:39:40

We're very white glove treatment. And the level of attention that we deliver on the show floor, I think, is really kind of taking us to the next level as we now have our own labor management group underneath the Blue Vive umbrella. And I also want to give a shout out to the folks who are running this show, this podcast. So Fist Bump is a group that I ran into a couple of years ago. It started with conversations just really about LinkedIn and kind of helping me kind of build my brand. It evolved into conversations of thought leadership and ultimately doing this show, which we're at episode 55 here. 

0:40:16

So for 2025, we did an episode every week. We've kind of shifted. a little bit o quality as it were a little less quantity. That's why we're having great conversations with the likes of Mr. Dorn. But, but, you know, Fist Bump does all the hard stuff. They take the lift off of me. 

0:40:37

They're sending the emails. I think, Chris, you agree that the communication that WANA, our producer, you know, puts out, you know, ahead of time, setting the schedule, setting the agenda, helping work out those talking points and all that communication stuff takes it off of me so that I can do my full time job. This is a fun thing that we get to do that hopefully moves the needle over the long term. But fist bump makes it happen. So I just want to kind of sneak that in. Let's kind of jump a little bit from the first part of our conversation has been awesome to understand a little bit of the thought process and so forth. 

0:41:14

Let's talk about some of the nuts and bolts things, Chris. So I'm an American exhibitor. 

0:41:20

you know, running a program here in the U . 

0:41:22

S. I'm very familiar with North America. 

0:41:24

I understand the dredge and I understand, you know, every city we go to, we got different rigging. 

0:41:29

You know, when I do a show in Orlando, I can do more. When I'm in Chicago, I can do less because of the unions kind of kind of peel back the curtains, if you would, as an American company coming over to the Pacific Rim, let's say Japan, just because it's where you're currently located. Although I know you guys work all over. but I'm a U . S. brand coming in to do a show, you know, in a city near you. 

0:41:57

I have a design, but what's the best way for me to kind of hand you like, hey, here's some things we've done in the U . S. 

0:42:05

Help me make this something that works in Japan. I know very specifically, having just been to Euroshop, that in Europe, the hospitality piece is a bigger piece of the puzzle. in the U .S. S. Right. So help me understand the local market. 

0:42:18

What are the expectations? What's going to resonate with the market in Japan as I move my my messaging and my U . S. thought process to, you know, to Japan or to China to do a show? Well, It's kind of a loaded question because there's a lot of things to keep in mind. The APAC region, not just Japan, because they often call Japan like the Galapagos Islands of business. 

0:42:46

We've worked with multinational companies before and they will have a world map and they'll say EMEA, you know, so you have Europe, Middle East, Africa. I have North America, South America, APAC and Japan. So, and so the way things are done here, it only happens here, what have you. But I think that one thing is really critical. I mean, if you get down to the nuts and bolts, what they're doing a lot is they're still using a lot of millwork. There's not as much system use. 

0:43:21

We really get into specifics, you know, like, You know, there's like one company here and another company here that has AluVision and Bmatrix, but it just really hasn't caught on because the overall, you know, business model is, you know, they're making their margins off of what they're building. They're not necessarily making money off of, you know, having a program, et cetera. There is a big sense that if you have like the same exhibits and you're reusing it, you don't have anything new to show. So you're basically just, you know, the same thing. And so you can do a refresh or whatever. But the other thing that's very limiting or restrictive is space. 

0:44:00

And so, for example, we did a major rollout, which helped us during the pandemic. And so we had 200 

0:44:12

you know, POP units that we brought in like 80, or excuse me, 840 foot containers. And so we needed a place to stage them because then we had to ship them and set them up throughout Japan. 

0:44:25

This was a big rollout. 

0:44:26

And so just to put it in perspective, you know, the monthly, you know, storage bill was six figures. six figures just for storage in a place that was about an hour outside of Tokyo. And it was just, you know, the client's like, what? And we're like, yeah, that's how much do you want to move forward? And let me get back to you on that one. I think we'll probably find something else. 

0:44:50

They came back to like, yeah, let's move forward. So we were checked around and they discovered that you want it. It just is what it is. It is what it is. We weren't, you know, giving them B . S. 

0:45:01

or anything like that. It really is, you know, land is premium is a premium item here. It's like if you've got houses here, the only thing that really retains its value. And it has changed a little bit the last couple of years. But the reality is, is that the land is what keeps its value, the building on top of it, they'll knock it down after 30 years, and then they'll build up a new house or what have you. And, you know, that's just the way it is. 

0:45:26

But I would say that, um, you know one of the things that's really important is you just can't make any assumptions and this might be something as just like an overall go -to is like just don't assume anything like really look at the exhibitor manual see what's possible because a lot of people will come to us like an exhibit manager say this is what we're doing in North America and it's like has a very you know immaculate overhead hanging sign with everything. And the reality is, in Japan and a lot of places in Asia, you don't have rigging. 

0:46:05

And so that means you have to do a floor support. 

0:46:07

Now, there's a few reasons behind that because some of the venues were designed, you know, and they can't, they didn't think far enough ahead to say like, oh, that might be your revenue potential, you know, from the venue owners for rigging, hanging points, air advertising, whatever it might be. 

0:46:25

And so we have to, you know, be thinking along the lines of, OK, we got to make that floor supported. And how is that going to affect the design? Well, it's going to affect it a lot. 

0:46:36

And so what can we do there? 

0:46:37

And then the other thing is like for Japan, a lot of times, we're not even doing raised floors. 

0:46:44

We're literally putting We're putting, you know, like this is needle punch carpet. And look how thin that is. I mean, that's paper thin. I had one client said that, wow, it looks like horse felt. What is that? Horse hair? 

0:46:56

You know, that felt? 

0:46:57

What is that? So, you know, just a lot of those things that will just set expectations with the client, like if they want to upgrade and do something a little bit nicer than you might do like some like, you know, like a loop carpet, that's a little bit thicker, or what have you. But compared to the United States, where you just guys are, you know, walking on clouds. We're so posh. 

0:47:20

Yes. 

0:47:21

I want one inch thick padding, double pad it, double pad it. You know, and it's like, how can you even walk on this, you know, or if you got, you know, it's like a trampoline, it's like a trampoline. But, and there are just, you know, various things, but the, the expectations like you would have. So like the shops that we worked with, they've been working with us for over 20 years. And so they know it's like, Oh, it's an idea project. Okay. 

0:47:47

This is going to be rough. But the reality is, is that they, they will know that expectation. It's like, okay, they're probably going to want to do carpet and pad. 

0:47:58

They probably want to do this. 

0:47:59

And so they then expanded their network and kind of opened their solution. 

0:48:05

So it's like, OK, so yeah, we are going to trough the pad. 

0:48:08

We are going to put the cables underneath of it or what have you. We're not going to see any lumps or anything. We're going to make it look nice in that regard. 

0:48:17

What else? Wallpaper in Japan, Taiwan, and Korea. and this job has been a few years ago, so I pull out, so this, I'm actually in the war room right now in the office, so I've got examples, you know, who laid the rail or what have you, but this is wallpaper, and so we know this client, so GE, Mr. Decker will know him as well, but yeah, so there's basically glue that's added to the back of this, and then it's, you know, attached, and Pantone colors, that is like the Bible, et cetera. So if you've got, you know, Pantone swatches and you want the client to match, you want the printer to match, then you give them a Pantone code and say, match this and send me samples. What else? Before you go into more detail. 

0:49:14

I know how we do things, right? I know what I know. We would print that to a vinyl, we'd put a layer of protective material over the top, but the vinyl would be self -adhesive and we can stick it to a panel or something like that. So what you have is, is it literally a paper -based product or is it more of a waxy? So this is one -time use. Yes, this is one -time use. 

0:49:37

This is a paper, right? So you have this as an option. You also have, they started doing this a little bit more the last few years, and this is like a vinyl PVC, but this is like a light box material. So Roar Torque, the client we worked with, the UK company, out of the US. But anyway, they were doing that. 

0:49:58

But similar to what you would have in the States, if you wanted to do a 3M material, so 3M is that, and then it's a printed herringbone. This is what we did for a client last year for their reception counter or what have you. 

0:50:19

So there are some similarities or whatnot, but it's just a matter of communicating without making any, you know, assumptions about, you know, what you can do. It's like, I want to do this and I've got this, you know, double convex, you know, very intricate helix type of, you know, pillowcase aluminum, you know, inch and a quarter, two inch tubing or whatever type of thing. Well, we might have to rethink that. 

0:50:45

you know, or we'll just, you know, we'll ship it in or whatnot. 

0:50:48

And that that actually has happened a few times where we'll just say, hey, we cannot produce that. you know, talk to a number of providers in the States that can do it and then just, you know, you know, air freight it on over or what have you. We've done that before and seen a lot of other, you know, higher end clients within the medical pharma side actually do that. So we then take care of all the back end of it to make sure it's approved. The fire marshal isn't going to have a, you know, a fit, et cetera. But yeah, those are some of the things specifically about Japan. 

0:51:19

You can actually, you know, take that into a few other countries as well, you know, like in China or Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, you know, there's there's still a big, you know, fallback to standard millwork, you know, wood fabrication, laminate, two pack lacquer finishes, roll paint type of solutions, to be honest. 

0:51:45

Yeah. Now, you mentioned spaces of a premium, right? So here in the U . S. , we've done a lot more rental than we ever used to. 

0:51:56

We used to build, you know, let's say Blue Hive. When we first started, we were 30 percent rental, 70 percent custom build, and people owned their properties. So we have big warehouses, we store them, we get big wooden crates, all that stuff. Where you guys are at, where the space is even more of a premium, even more so than Europe, maybe. after this show is over and you've built these beautiful things, are you storing them? We might use this again in a couple of years, we're going to hold on to it. 

0:52:24

Or is the storage cost, as you referenced earlier with those POP displays, is it so exorbitant that they're like We got to toss it and then we'll start from scratch again when we come back next year or a year after. Yeah, we've gone through this exercise a few times with programs, a few. And it's, you know, hey, if I build it in Japan, can you just ship it over to Korea? 

0:52:48

And it's like, well, no, not really, because they've got, you know, you're going to have to create it. 

0:52:53

So you've got a few thousand dollars in crates and you got to pay freight. 

0:52:57

And then once it gets there, you got basically a team that you know, doesn't know how it gets assembled. 

0:53:04

So, you know, there's that struggle and challenge. where we have had success is kind of a hybrid solution. So we've started to, you know, the last about seven or eight years, we started to save counters, like just generic things, and then incorporating it into, like, okay, I need a demo counter, I need a demo, you know, display, I need a reception counter. And it's like, okay, what does it need to you know, do. And then what we'll do is we'll wrap it, you know, put a new graphic on it or whatever it may be to fit the overall message, theme, look, feel. And then the client, instead of spending thousands of dollars, 

0:53:45

they're spending much, much less just to reuse something that's gonna fit and work. So it really has a lot of, how should I say, what's one that's been used here a lot, like cost performance. That's a term that's, even in Japanese, it's understood. 

0:54:04

It's kind of sexy. 

0:54:05

Yeah. 

0:54:05

Cost performance. OK, I like that. It's not cost efficiency, it's cost of performance. Yeah. And so we're doing that more. Another one that's really within the medical and pharma, there really has been a push the last probably, you know, few years on, on sustainability. 

0:54:24

And so we actually have a couple of larger pharma clients that really want to see. And we'll state within the booth space itself that this is reused cork flooring. This is reused wooden panels. This furniture is rental. You know, this will be reused, you know, at another show. And we've got a couple of clients that, you know, are doing that and showing that green initiative and seen a lot more of that the last few years. 

0:54:54

Yeah. 

0:54:56

Great. Great. All right. So that's that's an awesome kind of peek behind the curtain on some of that stuff. 

0:55:03

How about from a tech standpoint? I know simple stuff, like you said, probably one of the key things is just don't assume. 

0:55:11

Don't assume that what I do here, I can do there exactly. 

0:55:15

Your power is somewhat different. The plug configuration is different. I can't take something that's made to work in the US and ship it to Europe, and I'm going to have to use transformers and other stuff. Kind of the same thing with Japan. So when you get into, let's say, an AV or tech heavy booth. Um t 

0:55:35

your kind of go -to on that LED panels versus large TVs versus sound systems? I don't know. There's a lot of directions you could go with that. But in general, what does that kind of picture look like? Do you own TVs and LED panels? Do you have rental partners that own those things and would set them up much like we would have here? 

0:55:58

Yeah, exactly. So if you have a very go -to AV partner that's going to keep up with the latest and greatest because the technology is always changing, however often it is, it's no different than in Japan or in other parts of Asia. The U . S. is usually at the forefront of what's pushing the envelope. 

0:56:18

Let's say you have a transparent screen, you've got a touchscreen or interactive or something, and a client will come to us and say, hey, can you get this? 

0:56:25

And I've had more than once say, wow, that technology is still too new, we could buy it, but it's not on the rental market yet. And that will happen. 

0:56:36

But when it comes to kind of like where we are right now, clients are doing more how should I say, large LED tile walls are incorporating, you know, lighting, edge lighting. It might tie into the video, maybe not. But, you know, typically if you're looking at anywhere between a 2 .5 to 2 .9 millimeter pitch, you know, resolution, That's kind of like standard now. 

0:57:05

If you want to go higher than that, like 1 .9 or something from resolution for an LED tile, you know, you can do that. 

0:57:12

That's becoming more common. So the technology here is actually, compared to, you know, 20 years ago, there used to be a huge gap. it's actually closed quite a bit. So I can even go to India and I can tell, you know, Amit or Sanjay or whoever, it's like, hey, we want to do like a two millimeter, you know, a nicer, you know, display because there's a lot of, you know, boilerplate copy or something that needs to show up for like medical affairs or whatever it might be. And so they can do it. 

0:57:43

And that's pretty amazing considering, you know, how fast some of these countries have really, you know, sped up the last few years. And that's worldwide too. I mean, it's pretty amazing. Yeah. I actually met Sanjay at the IFAS booth. I know Sanjay is like, you know, Bob. 

0:58:02

Yeah. 

0:58:02

Well, yeah, I know they're John. 

0:58:04

Yeah. 

0:58:04

Like that. But yeah, Rohit, Sanjay, you know, et cetera. Yeah. But it's just very it's just very interesting. I mean, a few like if you're talking about India, you know, there still are countries that are quite challenging. I mean, from a personal experience. 

0:58:22

probably number one that's, you know, still, you know, it's on people's radars. There's still a couple of big shows that go there would be the Philippines in East Asia. That's a tough one. Their, you know, expectations, that's a four hour flight for us and go down to Manila from here. And, you know, we have to, for lack of a better term, we got to sit on them. to make sure that things are happening and they're up to expectations for the QC and everything like that. 

0:58:53

You have other countries that might not have as much shows, like we haven't done anything in Laos before or Cambodia, but they do have shows, but they tend to be more on infrastructure, construction, agriculture, et cetera, et cetera. And they're just not like an A tier or a top tier, you know, city where a lot of exhibitions are happening. But yeah, there are some countries. 

0:59:21

Yeah. Philippines. Yeah, that's been that one's fun. So. Gotcha. You know, so we're closing in on an hour here, but I wanted to talk 

0:59:30

on one thing, which as we are recording this and this will this will end up playing out in a week or so, but we're recording it. There's a war that's kind of broken out in the Middle East. Right. And and we know from a global standpoint, things like this are a reality of life, unfortunately. 

0:59:50

Right. People are losing their lives and we're talking about you know, exhibit stands. So the two things aren't necessarily equal. But in the big picture, like the show must go on. 

1:00:00

Right. There there will be a continuation. Business will continue to happen around the globe. And and it's going to have to it's going to have to be flexible around areas of conflict like this. So. Chris, you're familiar, more familiar probably with doing shows in the Middle East than I am, whether it be Abu Dhabi or, I mean, there's a lot of locations out there in multiple different countries that have very sizable exhibits, shows that go there, a lot related to defense and so forth and probably med tech. 

1:00:35

So when something unfortunate like this kind of happens, like are you seeing any, ripple effect or ramifications with people that you're dealing with? Or do you have any just general insight into like, if a show, you know, shows obviously just not going to happen right now, because it's too dangerous to send people into this general area. I don't know, general thoughts from you, based on a different vantage point of where you're sitting, you know, so far away from where we are in the US. It's tricky. 

1:01:07

It's a very unfortunate loss of life. Everything revolved around that and how it affects people's lives, not just our industry, but as a whole. 

1:01:18

I tend to, just to be very honest, I get a chance to see what it's like outside of the bubble in the United States. So I can see more international sides of things, what the feelings on the ground here in Japan are or in Asia. And it just affects everybody. 

1:01:42

So anybody that's in the UAE, the Middle East as a whole, it's very difficult. 

1:01:47

And I just hope that things get resolved. 

1:01:51

That's where I'm at at the moment. 

1:01:56

So we don't want to end on a sour note because that's unfortunate. 

1:02:00

But, you know, hopefully, hopefully our governments can figure things out and resolve stuff before we blow up too much, too much more things, too many more things, as it were. 

1:02:12

But, you know, trying to trying to put a bow on this, Chris, if there's if there's anything that you would be able to leave with our listeners or viewers, hey, like you've got to you're going to have a show that's happening in that Asia -Pacific region. 

1:02:33

Do you have a couple of must -haves or gold nuggets that you can leave with our guys as we're wrapping everything up? 

1:02:43

I would, don't hesitate to ask questions. 

1:02:47

What's done well? What's not done well? If you're looking for, you know, a partner, do you have experience in that particular country or city? You know, what have you done? 

1:02:59

See examples, set expectations. 

1:03:03

You know, it's always, you know, it's best, the best surprise is no surprise. 

1:03:10

It's probably my, a key, you know, takeaway. 

1:03:14

And so setting expectations, don't assume anything, do your research. It's very cliche, but you know, the more that you can find out and just have that knowledge, it really will help you out from an international standpoint without, you know, coming in like expecting this and then receiving and getting something else and be like, what happened? So. Right. Yeah. No, that's that's perfect. 

1:03:42

Hey, totally appreciate you staying up and burning the midnight oil. Dana and I are getting our day started. You're ready to pack it all in. It's beddy baggy time. 

1:03:51

Come on, guys. 

1:03:52

Absolutely. I know, right? Let's go. Wrap it up. Time to go to bed. No, no, no. 

1:03:56

It's fine. It's fine. I'm used to this, actually. I've had so many people say to me, it's like, when the hell do you sleep? And it's like, I've learned to nap. I don't do sleep. 

1:04:09

Yeah. Yeah. But it's all right. It's fun. 

1:04:13

Overall, guys, I mean, this is this is fun. This is one of the best industries you can possibly imagine. If you have something, you can think it, you can noodle through it, you can put it down on paper and then you can see it made to reality. And for me, that's that's very, very fulfilling. So, yeah, I'm right there with you at 30 something, you know, about 30 years in the industry that that as a guy who uh was in science and graphics and and design on that on on that end myself and also was a bit of a craftsman kind of like yourself to see a napkin sketch become real is like that's it doesn't get it doesn't get old it doesn't get old so it's magic agreed agreed all right so let's wrap this guy up chris what's the best way to reach you there's going to be some folks who are listening or watching this and say you know what i'm going to talk to chris dorn what's the best way to get ahold of you Best way to get a hold of me either through LinkedIn, I believe the link is included. You can also reach out to us on our website. 

1:05:15

idea -intl .com com or at our website, excuse me, our email, which is peace of mind at idea -intl . com. There you go. So what are you selling? I'm selling peace of mind. 

1:05:31

De -risk your Asian Pacific project and work with Mr. Dorn. Awesome. Hey, Chris, this has been great. Dana, thank you so much for coming. I know Tripp's probably underneath you. Thank him for being present. 

1:05:43

I could see his tail kind of like, you know, flopping around there. It's always good to have a canine participant. But thanks, everybody, for listening and watching. Tell your friends about the Event Marketers Toolbox. We are in year two and we're building a community of like -minded event professionals here. So great conversations and just a way to kind of sharpen the tools and stay relevant and stay current on things that are going on. 

1:06:09

So thanks, everybody. Have a wonderful day and cheers to you all. Take care.