EMT #57 with John Dubil - When the Medium Becomes the Message in Event Design

In this episode of Event Marketer’s Toolbox, hosts Chris Dunn and Brendon Hamlin sit down with John Dubil, Chief Strategy Officer at Ice 9 Productions, for a deep, real conversation about what actually makes live experiences work.

This isn’t about gear. It’s not about bigger screens. It’s about how message, environment, and technology come together as one.

From 35+ years in the industry — spanning supplier, agency, and client-side — John breaks down what’s changed, what hasn’t, and where most teams still get it wrong.

1. The Medium Isn’t Supporting the Message — It Is the Message

The biggest shift isn’t technological — it’s conceptual.

Too often, teams treat creative, production, and tech as separate pieces. But the reality is:

•  The environment is the communication 
•  The booth isn’t a backdrop — it becomes the brand 
•  Technology shouldn’t overpower the message, it should complete it 

2. Late Collaboration Is the Most Expensive Mistake

One of the strongest points in the episode:

Bringing partners in late doesn’t save money — it does the opposite.

•  Costs go up 
•  Risk increases 
•  Quality drops 

Early collaboration allows:

•  Better planning 
•  Smarter design decisions 
•  Fewer last-minute fixes 

3. The Industry Moves in Cycles — But Relationships Win Every Time

John walks through the pattern the industry keeps repeating:

•  Fragmentation → Consolidation → Fragmentation again 

But regardless of the cycle:

•  Talent follows culture 
•  Clients follow trust 
•  Great work comes from strong partnerships 

4. Technology Has Become More Powerful — and More Efficient

There’s a common perception that AV and production are getting more expensive.

The reality is more nuanced:

•  Technology has become more capable and more efficient
•  The impact per dollar has increased significantly 
•  The real cost drivers are often venue fees, labor, and logistics

5. Live Experiences Still Win — Because They’re Human

Despite digital overload, live events continue to grow.

Why?

•  Shared experiences increase emotional impact 
•  Human interaction drives memory and retention 
•  Energy and spontaneity can’t be replicated 

6. Measurement Can’t Be an Afterthought

One of the most practical takeaways:

If you’re not measuring outcomes, you’re missing half the value.

•  What actions did attendees take? 
•  What business results came from the experience? 
•  What should change next time? 

👉 Great experiences happen when people, process, and purpose are aligned.

Not in silos. Not at the last minute. Not driven by tools alone.

👉🏼 Join us for more insightful discussions like this by tuning into 'Event Marketer's Toolbox,' where industry leaders share the tools, tactics, and trends driving success in the event world.

This Show is sponsored by Blue Hive 

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Transcript

0:00:01

(Chris Dunn)

Hey, hello and welcome. 

0:00:03

(Chris Dunn)

This is Chris Dunn. I'm with Blue Hive Exhibits and we have an exciting episode today. I've got a couple of friends on board and we are here for the toolbox. So hope everybody has had a great week already and sit down. It's going to be a writer downer. You're going to be looking to learn some things and and leverage everything that we're going to get from John and Brendan here and kind of play that forward. 

0:00:25

(Chris Dunn)

So you guys probably recognize my friend Brendan. He's been with us almost 20 episodes, kind of in and out as a co -host. Great guy from Asheville, North Carolina, fellow craft beer lover and kicking it over to you, Brendan. 

0:00:39

(Chris Dunn)

How you been? 

0:00:40

(Chris Dunn)

And and then you're going to tell us a little bit about our guest, John. 

0:00:43

(Brendon Hamlin)

Yeah, I have been great. 

0:00:45

(Brendon Hamlin)

Thanks for asking. It's great to be back on the Event Marketers Toolbox. It's been a little bit. We have been all over the place. We've been to, I wrote it down, New York, DC, Indianapolis, Dallas, Las Vegas, Denver, and right here in Asheville, capturing content for conferences, trade shows, activations. We just did a great thing in Las Vegas where It was a conference for a brand. 

0:01:14

(Brendon Hamlin)

They brought their customers in and we took that opportunity to create testimonials. while all those people were together. So just a little shout out to all those event planners who are looking to add some added value to their conference. It's a great way to get a bunch of customers talking about how great their product is. So, but yeah, so we're a production company based out of Asheville, North Carolina. We travel all over the place and do lots of stuff, lots of content creation. 

0:01:43

(Brendon Hamlin)

So, but yeah, it's a pleasure to be here today. And we have John Jubil with us. 

0:01:49

(John Dubil)

uh chief strategy officer for ice nine productions welcome to the toolbox john hey thank you brandon and thank you chris i appreciate it and uh 

0:01:59

(John Dubil)

Asheville. We've done quite a few jobs there at Grove Park. I got my start in this industry in Charlotte, North Carolina, so I know the area. It's a beautiful area, so I'm excited to participate and get going and share what we do. sure we do ice nine productions, obviously, we are the, you know, technologists that take the great messaging that is created by Brendan's group or any other group and make sure that the audiences are, are moved by the message. And we work with, you know, the crafters of those messages and the fabricators of the environments to, to help, you know, make deliver that message in the most impactful manner. 

0:02:42

(John Dubil)

So Great happy to be here. 

0:02:44

(Chris Dunn)

So so you're not just like guys who rent led panels. That's not really How you how you pitch yourself? 

0:02:51

(John Dubil)

Uh, you can get those in a lot of places and uh, I would argue, uh, we do a bit more so That's fantastic. 

0:02:57

(Chris Dunn)

We're going to talk about that. 

0:02:59

(Chris Dunn)

Yeah, what's the value add? 

0:03:01

(Chris Dunn)

Awesome. 

0:03:01

(Chris Dunn)

Well, well john great to have you this has been uh kind of on the books for quite a while So really happy to uh to finally have you on here. This is a recorded Uh episode and it's going to roll out on april 9th I'll have you know that the day after this rolls out, I turn 59. So I'm still, you know, still very young and virile, not yet 60. So anyhow, that's a complete aside. Before we jump into the meat and potatoes of the conversation, which is going to be awesome, we have two sponsors. So a little bit about Bluehive. 

0:03:34

(Chris Dunn)

I work for Bluehive. You can see my logo over here. Bluehive Exhibits, we just turned 21 years old. We are also legal about that small group of creatives kind of formed in the ashes of a company called folio group that was a pretty substantial player in the in the exhibit. industry or exhibit industry and event industry back in the 90s. And we've been on this great trajectory. 

0:04:01

(Chris Dunn)

We're growing. We like to say that we were kind of a right sized group for many brands out there, whether you're kind of a well -funded startup that's looking to take yourself to the next level. If you were kind of a midsize, you know, kind of a group or if you're a large enterprise group, we really work with companies of all different sizes, lots of different industries. We have two different locations, one East Coast. Right now I'm here in Central Mass, outside of Boston. And then we also have a Vegas office and we do production and pretty much everything that we do here, we do out in Vegas really for the entire West Coast space. 

0:04:39

(Chris Dunn)

Obviously Vegas being kind of the mothership of all things trade show. And I think really kind of our differentiator is creativity and in -house production and really kind of having agency feel that also does the building, right? We don't form that out. We own that piece of crafting everything right here pretty much in our own space to just make sure that comes out exactly how our clients need it to. And then on the flip side, this event, right here is put on by our friends at Fist Bump. And Fist Bump is an agency. 

0:05:17

(Chris Dunn)

I ran into these guys, specifically, Brandon Lee, the founder a couple of years ago, we started chatting, I said, you know, I do like the idea of doing a podcast. And I, I tried to pull it off on my own. And I did not did not work. I needed help. I needed I needed assistance from a product, you know, producers and just people who knew the drill and could do the heavy lift. And these guys really stepped in and they've they've helped us, you know, with not only this show here, we're in our second season, the content capture and then the marketing of it. 

0:05:50

(Chris Dunn)

and all of that stuff. So for any of you guys out there who are looking to kind of step into a thought leadership role within your industry, have great conversations and kind of capture the content, Fist Bump is a tremendous group to work with. So nothing but the best. And behind the scenes right now, our friend Juana, I finally met Juana for the very first time last week. I was in Europe for Euroshop and Juana's living in Europe currently. So Juana, great to meet you. 

0:06:18

(Chris Dunn)

I just wanted to shout out and tell the world that you're just as wonderful in person as you are in the digital world. But anyways, without further ado, I'm going to kick it back over to Brendan. And Brendan, you're going to start with our many questions for John. 

0:06:34

(Brendon Hamlin)

Yeah, yeah. And I think maybe before we kind of dive into, you know, the meat of the story here, maybe, John, you could just give us a little bit of your background, just to kind of set the stage for what we're about to talk about, kind of, you know, where have you been? 

0:06:54

(John Dubil)

Everywhere. 

0:06:56

(Speaker 18)

Yeah. 

0:06:57

(John Dubil)

Well, now, as we said earlier, I'm excited to be at Ice 9 Productions now and have been for a few years now and helping that team. 

0:07:04

(Chris Dunn)

Got my Ice 9 Productions hat, by the way. 

0:07:06

(John Dubil)

There you go. All right. you know, ice nine boutique technologists, always cutting edge. You know, I'm not only an employee now, but I was a client for many years. And that's what segued to being an employee. And, you know, met the founders many years ago, they kept showing up on some of my most elaborate productions, and they really impressed me. 

0:07:33

(John Dubil)

So years later, when it came time to reconnect, I was all in. So background, started out in the industry, much like anybody else, needed a paycheck, got out of college and fell in with an AV rental and staging company and just saw my first Walmart regional sales meeting and was hooked. I was like, I could not believe the energy and the space. I was like, oh my gosh, people get paid to do this. And before that I'd studied film and media messaging. 

0:08:07

(John Dubil)

And so to me, it was just, It was love at first sight. At that time, the industry was going through some major, well, it started afterwards, some major consolidation, and I really got the bug and got to meet some great people and went through this huge wrap up. We became part of this large company called Caribbean International, which Sought to do it all right. They were gonna do everything and they got pretty darn close and Through that I got to really meet some great people the people that produced the Hong Kong handover ceremonies people that produced the the original Microsoft Office launch all those really meaty projects and it just really again caught me segue from there into the buying side and After that, after the carabiner experiment kind of went its own way, so that went from consolidation to fragmentation, I ended up on the buying side within the advertising agency at Fidelity Investments for 20 years. So there, I got to kind of help craft a message and buy all these goods and services. for another 20 years, where this is where I met the founders of ice nine. 

0:09:24

(John Dubil)

And so, so 15 years supplying 20 years buying, you know, come full circle back into boutique, really, really good cutting edge technology that is delivering messages the way we feel they should be. And the way that really have impact. 

0:09:41

(Brendon Hamlin)

So that's kind of the background. Yeah, that's great. Well, and that's the perfect kind of setup to kind of give us your overview of what you've seen over your 35 plus years in this industry. 

0:09:56

(John Dubil)

How have things sort of evolved and what are you seeing that's different these days in terms of the, the way an event or an experience is presented to an attendee. Well, no surprise technology is a big part of it, right? And that's you know, we We talk about the human scale and I think we should never lose that because to me That's what it's all about where we are in the business of emotions and getting people to take action But how do you do that? And how do you know you craft a really good? You know a good message you study your message you study your audience and then you know How do you get it from point A to point B? The technology has been tremendous, right? 

0:10:41

(John Dubil)

I mean, it used to be very fragmented. You had to have a million different types of technology to give one talk. And it took forever to set up and gosh, it was going to break at some point all the time. Stuff still happens, but it's a lot less and there's a lot more bells and whistles you can build in. So the The impact that you can do with this technology is just, to me, that's been the biggest change. And it's the most exciting part, if you ask me. 

0:11:09

(John Dubil)

And I'm not shorting the message and the creation of the message, because I think it's all one in the same. Nothing lives in silos. It has to be. If we show up on a show floor in silos, then we're not doing our jobs impact that I've seen ob you know, besides industry changes and fluctuations and obviously markets, you know, we've had booms and busts. 

0:11:40

(Brendon Hamlin)

The main thing to me has been how you can use that changing technology to really amplify your message and have more impact than ever before. Yeah, you talked in the in the green room, you were talking about Marshall McLuhan and that whole philosophy and talk a little bit about how you how you've taken that and sort of applied it to the events industry. 

0:12:09

(John Dubil)

How does that work? Yeah, I had a professor who kind of got me into Marshall McLuhan, who was a Canadian philosopher. And he wrote this book that we all kind of had when we were film students. And it was called Understanding Media. And it really had an impact. I came from a very analytical background and still have that. 

0:12:32

(John Dubil)

I'd love to study how things work and why to include measurement. And to me, that just clicked. And the general gist of the message is that as we've evolved, what we use to transmit messages, and in the case of Marshall McLuhan, he was talking about television, but it was more than that. He even talked about the light bulb. The light bulb is a thing that gets bright. but it's also part of a message because you can't read without it, right? 

0:13:06

(John Dubil)

So it becomes part of the messaging. So at what point does the medium of delivery become the message? And I've always tried to say when we're crafting these large environments for a production, I always want to make sure that we're not overbuilding technology. too. So I don't to me, the medium shouldn't overshadow the message. It should be part of it and it should complement it. 

0:13:36

(John Dubil)

And that's kind of how I take that philosophy. And, you know, it's it's it is philosophy that is no surprise. Same philosophy that the founders of Ice9 believed in. And, you know, we just clicked. It was like, yeah, we want to use this super cool technology, the latest and greatest. 

0:13:55

(Chris Dunn)

but in a way that compliments, not overshadows. And I think it's, when done well, it's a beautiful thing, as you know. If I could just jump in and add to that. Representing the booth guy here on the conversation, one of the things that we talked a little bit earlier was that cohesive aspect of that entire environment, whether it be a booth space activation or event or whatever the case is, it needs to feel like it all exists or comes from the same place. As a technology partner, Like you are for or with Blue Hive and certainly many other exhibit houses and agencies. What's the best way to, I guess, involve you guys in a project or a production? 

0:14:46

(Chris Dunn)

I certainly can envision some things that we've done where we came to people like you far too late. We should have involved you earlier. And then just things evolved. And all of a sudden, it's like, hey, we've got this thing happening in like a couple of weeks. 

0:15:01

(John Dubil)

Can you help us out? But in an ideal world, you know, What are those foundational steps look like when you're joining with a true partner, you know, to kind of work towards a solution for a project or a problem? Yeah. Well, and that hasn't changed over time. It's, you know, yes, you know, it can be at the tail end and it can be oh gosh, we need to go do this now, but I've always found, and it's true now as it was then, when you bring in your various partners at late stages, you pay more, you induce risk, and you lower quality. 

0:15:42

(John Dubil)

Your impact goes down, your costs go up, and your risks go up. I always say project kickoff, you know, when you're getting the creative brief, when everybody's just saying, hey, we have to deliver whenever it could be. It could be two years out when you are talking about that, because what you're doing at that same time, you're forming relationships and relationships are what we deliver for our clients. So as a group, if we have that relationship going from beginning, it's going to show up in the product. So, you know, you know, the relationships and impact is not part of just what we sell and deliver. It has to be part of our process. 

0:16:24

(John Dubil)

And I say process a lot because I, to me, that's just part of, you know, I'm a process guy, but it is, it's integral. So, you know, I know costs are always parts of everybody's discussion, but And they say, oh, gosh, if I bring in this team early, it'll cost more. It actually costs more if you don't. And, you know, so it's, you know, find your sweet spot, get your partner, talk to them, learn about them, you know. They'll be with you for a long time, hopefully, but they'll know your message, they'll know your brand, and they'll know your client's message and your client's brand, and they'll support you on how you work with your clients. They won't override you, they won't overshadow you. 

0:17:10

(John Dubil)

They can be your partner, your support mechanism in those conversations done well. 

0:17:16

(Brendon Hamlin)

Obviously, you have to have a good partner who does that, but if all things are clicking, you will save. Yeah, earlier, earlier than better. Save the save the show, for instance, I mean, we've had we've had late breaking clients bring us in with not nearly the lead time we needed and had problems, you know, because you didn't have that lead time. 

0:17:43

(John Dubil)

So you're really it's like insurance, you know, like you're, you're buying yourself insurance by making sure that you've done the pre production and the, you know, and you have the partners there, and everybody's on the same page. Sometimes you can't throw money at it to fix it. It's too late. In those early talks, I see things through a different lens. I have a different experience. In those early talks, I'm already looking at what's going to go wrong. 

0:18:14

(John Dubil)

And I can raise that flag and I can say, hey, wait a minute, I've seen this once before. Yeah. And you know, I used to joke and like I get paid to assume everything is going to go to heck in a handbasket. Yeah. And I'm going to I'm going to raise my arm and say, guess what? I saw this once. 

0:18:30

(Chris Dunn)

We should think about this as we're going down our journey together. So it's, you know, Don't short that people can kind of raise flags early because they can and because no one can really know everything about the entire scope of a very complex project. If you can, I'd like to meet that person in 35 years. I have not. Right. And and, you know, sometimes we've talked a little bit about the cost for, you know, for for intricate projects or elaborate projects. 

0:19:05

(Chris Dunn)

And They're not inexpensive, but exactly what you're talking about. Find somebody, not cheapest, but find somebody with experience. 

0:19:15

(Speaker 18)

you can align with and partner with because what they know and what they can save you in regards to either future spend or complete collapse of said project by seeing around corners, by saying, Exactly what you said, John. 

0:19:31

(Chris Dunn)

I've seen this movie before, right? We've got to be prepared or the rigging is going to fail. We haven't put the proper truss and lighting in the right spots and now we've got to tear it all down and set it back up again, right? So, know what you're doing going into that and save yourself a lot of time and headache and potentially money in the future by doing it right the first time, I guess. Absolutely. All right, cool. 

0:19:59

(Chris Dunn)

That's certainly music to my ears as well, because obviously, as the booth guy, the booth builder here, we want to create a super cohesive feel in that space where everything feels like it came from the same spot. And it's not like, here's the booth over here, and then, oh, here's the technology piece over here. And we're going to create some content. We're going to weave it through. It's all got to be cohesive. Um, but kind of jumping to really kind of our, our next, uh, kind of thing. 

0:20:33

(Chris Dunn)

Um, again, I know you've been, you know, 35 years in the game on both sides, which is really cool because. I, I, I would imagine that as somebody who's selling this now, right? 

0:20:44

(John Dubil)

Like you're selling to somebody that you used to be, right. 

0:20:47

(Chris Dunn)

You understand what it's like to be in the shoes of that buyer. 

0:20:50

(John Dubil)

Uh, so you can really kind of not only craft the message, but, but really speak honestly to them and said, I I've been you. 

0:20:56

(Chris Dunn)

And I had concerns, same concerns that you're having, right? 

0:21:00

(John Dubil)

And let me help you de -risk the situation because of the things that I know. 

0:21:05

(Chris Dunn)

I know the meeting you're going to go into with your stakeholders back in the office. Let me help you. I know you're going to have to convince them how. You bring a lot of value to that conversation for sure. It's not an easy job, so I understand. 

0:21:23

(John Dubil)

The word corporate theater, I don't know if you mentioned it earlier, but we definitely talked about it in the green room. And let's talk about that as the precursor to what we're calling now experiential marketing. As it were, you saw this in your early days, you saw this Walmart kind of rollout and you kind of described it as a corporate theater. And now we would call that experiential marketing. So walk us through kind of maybe that transition of what's happened over time, or maybe it's really just the same and we've renamed it. Well, yeah, it's anything it's your rebranding is great You know to me it is kind of the same thing. 

0:22:04

(John Dubil)

It's just different delivery, right? It's uh, you know the idea of you know early on, you know back to technology, right technology was Limited so, you know, how did you get a audience of? 700 people inspired, invigorated, and ready to go. You had to do something so you'd get your executives up and have them do a play, right? And if you look back on some of the old videos on YouTube, you can go on YouTube and you can watch the old Microsoft launches and you see the guys up there dancing and doing skits. And it's really, now it seems very quaint, but at the time that was, you know, Uh, you know, one company I worked with, they did all the, you know, the McDonald's, uh, you know, uh, you know, franchisees shows. 

0:22:51

(John Dubil)

And, you know, it was everybody put on a skit type thing. Uh, and you know, the origins of the business, at least when I got into it, you know, it came from a lot of people in theater. It was, you know, a lot of Broadway based people. Now fast forward with all the technology and the immersive and ways you can really get your clients into the environment, both in a trade show setting or wherever, now you don't need to have a play. 

0:23:22

(Brendon Hamlin)

But so it was corporate theater and then it evolved into, which is to me, a more accurate description, experiential, because it is, you know, we are asking, we are taking people on an experience. 

0:23:33

(Chris Dunn)

And it's, you know, the studies have been around forever, you know, if you and I share a piece of chocolate together in a space, we are going to, we're going to enjoy that chocolate more than if we just had that same piece of chocolate, 500 miles away from each other. And it's, it doesn't, technology helps, But when we share experiences live on a trade show or in any sort of environment or a pop -up on the street, it has more impact. That's why this whole industry still has legs, and in my humble opinion, always will. 

0:24:07

(John Dubil)

It's just we are emotional people, and emotion helps retain what we see and hear. 

0:24:19

(Speaker 17)

My consumption is usually standing in the pantry, hiding from my wife. 

0:24:26

(Speaker 16)

I have this picture stuck in my head of really awkward Bill Gates and Paul Allen on the stage, clapping completely out of time. 

0:24:38

(John Dubil)

This guy is the most awkward. 

0:24:40

(Speaker 15)

billionaire that will ever be. 

0:24:42

(Speaker 7)

Yeah, they're happy that technology kind of moved along. 

0:24:47

(Chris Dunn)

Yeah, exactly. Don't make me do it again. You had to be the producer on that show saying, come on guys, come on. This is so awkward, you guys. Keep going, keep going. Hey, you already mentioned it a little bit earlier, 

0:25:00

(Chris Dunn)

but the idea of consolidation fragmentation rinse and repeat, right? Everything is cyclical. We kind of see the market swing up and back. You know, in trade shows, I see I see companies do large national shows and get tired of those. And they're like, let's do it. I think the real wind is going to be to go to smaller, you know, kind of regionalized shows. 

0:25:20

(Chris Dunn)

And then after a while of doing that, they're like, these two are too small. We've got to get out in front of the national audience again. 

0:25:24

(John Dubil)

So the pendulum tends to swing back and forth. We talked a little bit earlier about kind of about consolidation and fragmentation. So I think Where are we now kind of in your, with regards to your world, uh, in that technology that the AV and material world, um, we kind of, uh, are we consolidating? Are we fragmenting? Are we a little bit of both? It's, I think we're back to a consolidation phase, both on the gear side and the agency side. 

0:25:52

(John Dubil)

Um, and it, it tends to go that way. Uh, because when it's in fragmentation mode, you know, there's a lot of people that do it and they do it well. And then they age out and then people Investors come in and say hey I can pick up all these regionals at a pretty good price And I'm gonna bring them all together and we're gonna we're gonna really make this thing a McDonald's type Process and we're gonna make money which they do And then it kind of goes that way for a while and then everybody kind of goes there, you know it's, this is not what I want to do. Then it fragments again, because then you have people going out and starting their own shops again. And I've seen that, you know, when I came into the industry, it was fragmented. We had our regional shops and we all competed against each other. 

0:26:46

(John Dubil)

And all of a sudden, you know, TAVS, Steve Goot sold off to GE Capital and we all were like, Oh my God, there's there's private investment or there's investment coming in and then they bought somebody else and then he sold to Carabiner and then Carabiner went and floated Wall Street money and started gobbling up everybody. So, and then next thing you know, we're all in the same boat. Now, the positive part of that was I got to meet some great people and I learned a lot. I saw a lot go wrong as far as how do you do mergers and acquisitions and that piqued my interest in the business side of it. I think that's kind of explains the cycle. 

0:27:28

(John Dubil)

Now, obviously, economics plays a lot, obviously, as well, you know, when money's cheap. people want to put it somewhere, right? But, you know, to me, the biggest thing I've seen is, you know, you get people that want to be boutique, no surprise, I'm a believer in boutique, I believe in that you can do a great job with a relationship driven business. Yes, there are economies of scale. And if you need 16 truckloads of the same type of LED panel to go do a Taylor Swift concert, have at it, that's a good thing. But if you really want to focus on a good message, I think, you know, the boutique is the way to go still. 

0:28:09

(John Dubil)

But you'll see it come and go. And then, you know, to me, you know, we went through COVID. And a lot of the individual shops, you know, a lot of the owners who went through a lot of stress, and I don't blame them. They're like, I'm ready to tap out. And here comes private equity saying, Oh, yeah, we're ready to go be up. And, you know, we see it, you know, both on small and large scales as far as aggregation, but which one's right? 

0:28:37

(John Dubil)

It depends on what you're doing. Obviously, it depends on ownership, the company, the people, and the client base. 

0:28:48

(Speaker 14)

It's 

0:28:50

(Chris Dunn)

we're seeing some consolidation again. I'm the one that likes to zig when other people zag. 

0:29:01

(John Dubil)

If you're all consolidating, I'm going to go find the people that don't want consolidation. They want personal attention to me because I think that has more impact. Yeah, very cool. That's a great segue into just the idea of within your world, obviously, a lot of changes, but at the core of it, what are some of the things that have changed and what hasn't changed with regards to all aspects, I guess? Obviously, we know technology's changed, but the core of what you guys are doing? I think it's the people. 

0:29:38

(John Dubil)

It's, yes, technology. One thing I loved about this industry early on is the people and I don't care who you talk to. I think most people will say that is like I've met and worked with some of the most creative, most hardworking, most decent people I've ever met. And you want to be around those people. And those are the people that tend to be the most creative and the most genius when it comes to either creating content or using technology in really cool ways. And, you know, back to that consolidation phase. 

0:30:14

(John Dubil)

consolidation doesn't really encourage, you know, taking care of the employees, right? I mean, you've got to have, you know, things have to be, you know, I keep going back to McDonald's, and it's not that it's not a slam on McDonald's. But, you know, you have to have everything a lot more regulated. And I find that people in our industry who are really going to add value don't really exist well in that environment. And so it's, you know, you know, it's, it's the best places I've been, it's, you know, deliver for the clients, right? 

0:30:47

(John Dubil)

So, you take care of your people, you give them the best tools, you give them the best resources, you pay them well, you give them a fun place to work, you know, you let them create the work, the environment, right? I keep saying give, it's not give, it's actually, it should be organic. Your job is to create a they garden where the employees and all the great talent can actually do their do what they do best. Right. 

0:31:12

(Chris Dunn)

So to me, it's, you know, you know, when when you go back to fragmentation, you know, that's where all the talent's running. 

0:31:22

(Speaker 13)

And when you see consolidation, you will see talent running away from that. 

0:31:27

(Chris Dunn)

And that's when you, you know, and that's definitely where Ice Nine has benefited from. 

0:31:31

(Brendon Hamlin)

And it's a, it's a, it's a, when it's done, it's a really cool thing to see. Uh, cause just watching the, all the great minds come together and be happy about what they're doing. It's a, it, you can't, it doesn't, you can't help, but see that on the show floor. So. Right. It translates. 

0:31:50

(Brendon Hamlin)

All right. Mr. Hamlin. 

0:31:53

(John Dubil)

Well, there was one other thing that maybe you can shed some light on or give your point of view on. Why do you think live events and communication still captivate us? Why does that draw us in? We're so inundated with, you know, our phones and social media, all of this stuff that is taking us away. What is it about the live event that still There's an awe about it. There's a there's something different. 

0:32:26

(John Dubil)

I mean, it's live. It's we're together What's your point of view there? Well, you just you know, you said it's live, right? You don't know what's gonna happen next There's no second takes it's it's live. So there's always that but it's also how it's done right? 

0:32:40

(John Dubil)

So live usually means a live audience and back to a sharing an experience together. So to me, you know, you know, live is it can it can be adaptive, right? It can be we can pivot right away, we can go to another subject right away. You know, I always said, if you really, you know, if you want to spend the least and have something that's bulletproof, you know, we call that a video. It's linear, right? It's that I can put a tape in the machine to use an old technology and we run a tape and that's it, right? 

0:33:19

(John Dubil)

We know it's going to work and we know the message is going to be. And so that has less risk and typically less cost. When you go live, you induce risk, you induce cost, but you also induce what can be done with that and what is the impact and your ability to interact. 

0:33:37

(Chris Dunn)

Right. 

0:33:37

(John Dubil)

So I can look at my audience. 

0:33:39

(Chris Dunn)

If I'm speaking to an audience live, I can tell when I'm dying so I can maybe mix it up a little bit and I can say, hey, let's go over here. So and audiences love that. And again, it increases the impact of the message. 

0:33:54

(Speaker 7)

I retain. 

0:33:55

(Chris Dunn)

I walk away from that and I go, wow, I remember that I sat next to Brendan and we talked about it. And now when we go back to our our homes and go back to Asheville, which is beautiful, I wish I could go there more often. You know, we could say, Jesus, I remember I was sitting next to John and John was talking my ear off, but I was able to hear some of it. And, you know, and we had a great time. Yeah. So, yeah. 

0:34:23

(Speaker 5)

Having just come back from a show over in Europe, Brandon, the first time I've gone to this Euroshop, and again, it was like, you can't duplicate the energy of... 

0:34:35

(Chris Dunn)

live event. 

0:34:37

(Brendon Hamlin)

And yeah, could I have found a bunch of videos online of people walking the show floor and seeing the same things that I saw? Sure. But you can't duplicate the energy that you get from being with the people and sitting down together, pressing the flesh, the handshakes and the hugs and that stuff, and you come home, with that, with that, like, you know, collective energy, like, man, this is awesome. I want to go do that again. I'm somewhat addictive. Right. 

0:35:03

(John Dubil)

So I don't think I don't think that technology has done anything but increase our need for that because we're we're doing so much of this. Right. There's so much on screen and so much digital and so much social media, which is all good. But but it means that that we need more of that personal human to human interaction. Yeah. Irreplaceable. 

0:35:26

(John Dubil)

The value of it seems to be even greater than it ever was. We are so all connected to our phones and digital worlds and spaces. So one thing that moving on to our next topic is kind of getting down into the weeds a little bit and kind of talking about costs. We, I find a lot of folks, a lot of my clients that I work with talk about how expensive AV is. But what gets wrapped into that notion is, you know, the cost of the Wi -Fi or the power or things like that, that really aren't AV costs. So maybe you can talk a little bit about what the reality of that is compared to what the presumption is. 

0:36:13

(John Dubil)

Yeah. Yeah. We're we're guilt by association, right? And I, you know, usually if I talk to somebody and I will ask budget, you know, you shouldn't be ashamed of talking budget. It's it's not a dirty word. And it's, you know, and then I'll always ask, it's not a dirty word. 

0:36:30

(John Dubil)

inclusive of facility fees, which is what you're getting at, right? They're going to hit you with the labor. Facilities, I benefited from that a long time ago. I know I was around the people who wrote the first contracts that were built to build up barriers of entry. They're there for a reason, because the facilities get a very large percentage of what those companies do, both for rigging and power and everything else that takes place in there. To them, that is a revenue generator. 

0:37:05

(John Dubil)

Believe it or not, when I started, it wasn't. It was actually something that they used to just say, hey, can you come help my client? Because it was ancillary. But obviously then, you know, just like the person parking the cars and the person who really runs that restaurant in the lobby, it is now full -blown revenue generation. So they're going to do everything they can to make sure they're getting, you know, the revenue out of that space. And I don't blame them. 

0:37:32

(John Dubil)

So costs as far as the technology, you know, I would argue, and the stats are out there, that the technology has gotten a lot more simplified. It sounds oxymoronic, but the technology, having advanced, is actually simpler. Now the guys in the shop are going to shoot me for saying this, because in their mind it has it. And it has it when you get back into the real nuts and bolts of it. But it has certainly, you know, obviously the complexity of it has made it more impactful. So in the old days when you needed five different types of technology to do one message, now you've got technology that can just do it all. 

0:38:20

(John Dubil)

And it's very impactful. So if you track the cost of things over time, you know, the cost of travel, food and beverage facilities, that's all gone up, up and up. Technology certainly has not gotten cheaper, nor has labor and all the special people that know how to do all that stuff. But the impact of how that message hits people has gone through the roof. So if you take it all in context, and I know that's like saying, gee, you know, If I go to my doctor and he says it hurts and he goes, no, according to this chart, it doesn't hurt. 

0:38:51

(John Dubil)

So you, you don't hurt. I, you know, I understand. So, you know, how do you, how do you fight those budgets? And again, it goes back to talk early. Right. And, you know, there are options, facility options are all over the place. 

0:39:04

(John Dubil)

Everybody wants to host your environment, right? It doesn't have to be a trade show hall. It doesn't have to be a ballroom. And when you're talking to your entire team, You can spitball different concepts. 

0:39:18

(Brendon Hamlin)

You can have these engagements and these pop -ups in lots of different places. You talk about the barbell of the industry, big events, small events, and the middle is getting squeezed. be creative. You know, there are different ways to do this and you don't have to show up in a ballroom or an expo hall and pay those outrageous prices. There are times you're going to have to because that's where, you know, as they say, you know, why do you rob a bank? 

0:39:41

(John Dubil)

Because that's where the money is. Sometimes you got to go where the people are. So in that sense, then plan early, plan often, because your technology partner does know how to work with all the other technology partners in those halls. And if you think these people don't talk behind the scenes and haven't known each other forever, trust me, they have. And loyalties of expertise of technology and skill sets, those, especially with teams that have been around for a while, that loyalty goes beyond the logo on the shirt when you're on show floor. People just help each other because they've known each other forever. 

0:40:18

(John Dubil)

So, you know, keep that in mind. know a good partner who's done this for a while bring them in early and you'll see costs you know at least not go through the roof. And that's a little bit different. So if you're going to a ballroom scenario, bringing your own team in, so bringing Ice9 with you is a different situation than using who's in -house. But talk about what the benefits are of all of that time beforehand before you get to that ballroom and what those benefits are. compared to working with the folks that are in -house. 

0:40:57

(John Dubil)

There's a reason to work with the folks in -house, but what are the reasons why you really want to get a partner like Ice9 early on? Well, they know your business, they know your brand, they know you, and they're going to be your advocate, they're going to be your voice. I'll put my old hat on when I was buying the services, right? I had facilities offer to cut everything. I mean, I've had people call me and say, we will do whatever, you know, I used to hire ice nine. So ice nine would be my partner going into some ballroom somewhere. 

0:41:31

(John Dubil)

And, you know, the people in that facility would say, we will give you whatever they're charging you and charge you less. So I said, that's to me, that's not a value because guess what? A, the risks go up and B, this team knows me and I'm going to have to reinvent everything I've already been through with them to re -educate you on how this big production comes together and not to not for nothing. 

0:41:56

(Brendon Hamlin)

You don't know my brand. You don't know my executives. You don't know my my speech writers. You don't know my creatives. Yeah. 

0:42:02

(John Dubil)

All of that. So. So, yeah, I can go into this facility and they may offer me a pre -production meeting a month out or something. And they may offer me somebody that's going to be my contact at all their facilities. or something, but, uh, in practice. 

0:42:19

(Chris Dunn)

That doesn't happen much because, again, they're part of a conglomerate, you know, some of that big come together company stuff and the good people run away from that. 

0:42:27

(Speaker 12)

So it's so it's I found over time that if you really want somebody who knows you and really delivers and helps you, you know, because, you know, as we said, there's so many moving parts to all this that me as executive producer on some big project, I need that partner because, you know, if I'm part of a big corporation, you know, guess what? 

0:42:49

(Chris Dunn)

They're not going to give me 1 ,500 associate producers in my department, but Ice and Iron will certainly help me in that planning. In the end, it saves me time and money and risk. It's a better product, obviously. we have a we have sort of a same type of thing with our clients, just that that shorthand can be invaluable, you know, just the knowing the people that knowing the people in the agencies that we work with knowing the people having, you know, I've worked with some people for over 10 years, like, I knew them, you know, before they were married, before they had kids, before they, you know, like there's a personal relationship there. And that goes a long way to when you're there trying to deal with a problem. And you trust each other as opposed to somebody you just you met a few weeks ago. 

0:43:42

(Chris Dunn)

So I'm a big fan. I'm a big proponent of the partnership. 

0:43:48

(John Dubil)

I come down to measurement too, right? In the end, I've seen the numbers and it is more efficient and you're going to have fewer failures and you're going to have more impact. And the fact that it might make my job easier, well, okay, I'll take that too, but yeah. And I always do other stuff too, right? you know, so, you know, I can be more productive if my partner is more productive. Yeah. 

0:44:14

(John Dubil)

So becoming an extension of your clients team, you know, and taking that, that load off, peace of not only physical, but peace of mind, right? It's just giving them the space. We're seeing on our end, I'm sure you guys see it as well as is that, you know, the budgets, maybe, maybe our brands budgets haven't been diminished dramatically, but the headcount uh within the group that that executes the events they have right they've seen those cuts so where there was five now there's three where there was three now there's one and those people are being asked to do so much so they need groups like us to come in and be like, we'll literally take, give me your plate. I'll take all of that stuff. 

0:44:52

(Chris Dunn)

You go do what you need to do and we've got this. 

0:44:55

(Chris Dunn)

So we found that that's the level of service that we're offering on the show floor nowadays is a big selling factor. And it's adding money, it's making us more expensive. But after they've experienced it once and come away and they're like, oh, my God, like, thank God I had you guys there. They understand the value. 

0:45:15

(John Dubil)

I know you guys operate very much the same way in that aspect. I'm sure you've seen it and you brought up creative. It's, you know. one thing that helped us a lot when I was on the agency side was, you know, the agent, you know, the brand experts on our creative brand experts, they knew how to create for, you know, the web or, you know, out of home type things, you know, station domination stuff. But when it got into how do you design for these complex environments with all these different visual components, you know, mostly LED or, or even, you know, projection mapping and all this cool stuff that they aren't, they aren't experts at creating content for that. They're the experts of the brand. 

0:46:00

(John Dubil)

So when you, you know, as, as the fabrication partner, and that vision partner can help them in that aspect, you're doing a great service. And I've never known creative teams that haven't said, oh my gosh, you know where this content's going and it's not this? awesome, you know, come join us, help us, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll guide but if you're going to give us, you know, all the technology behind it, you know, the pixel count and all those complex things, I've yet to find anybody who doesn't want that help. It's to me, it's logical. So yeah, yeah, 100%. 

0:46:36

(John Dubil)

Hey, we are at about 46 minutes, we usually try to keep the toolbox a little under an hour. So we're going to kind of move forward just with a couple of things that really kind of tie exact tie into, you know, what it is that we've just been talking about. The importance of collaboration over silos, which is kind of what we were talking about there, and putting everybody on the same page with regards versus having all these siloed teams that have no idea what each other's doing. Talk a little bit about kind of designing the medium responsibility, like ultimately where does that fall and how does that work? 

0:47:16

(Speaker 10)

Well, again, it's I think it's all in conjunction. 

0:47:21

(Chris Dunn)

It's, you know, it's one thing that the takeaway is we're not in silos. You know, if we're in silos, that's what we're going to get. And, you know, the, you know, the medium, you know, going back to the medium is message. It's, you know, we are all the medium and, you know, what we bring to the table as far as, you know, helping craft the message, helping design the environment, helping use technology as part of that design of the environment and the fabrication of that environment. 

0:47:47

(John Dubil)

And, you know, is it this versus that, you know, those those talks across the silos, for lack of a better term, is key. And if, you know, if your partners are putting that forward in a way that's from a team -based approach, then you probably need to find new partners. Because if anybody says that they're the know -all of everything, then I'm probably going to walk away. I like the people that listen more than they talk. And if somebody is in that meeting and they're just listening and taking notes, nine times out of 10, that's going to be the person that's going to come back at the next meeting and have some really cool ideas. 

0:48:33

(John Dubil)

But don't treat it as step one, I talk to these guys, step two, I talk to these guys, step three, I talk to these guys, if you can. We all know that sometimes pays off perfection. But if you can bring your team together, have them collaborate, because after that meeting's over, I'm going to call you up and say, hey, I heard something that's really could help you. And, you know, and that and that's going to keep going until you get to execution. And so that's to me, that's the bullet. Gotcha. 

0:49:07

(John Dubil)

You know, one other thing that I kind of wanted to make sure and ask about as we get ready to kind of you know, start wrapping up. But when you guys are thinking about projects, right, there's obviously multiple different types of projects. But maybe a one -off activation versus a long -term brand environment type of a thing. Like, how do you separate your thought process for that, where one is kind of more of a, they all might be temporary, but kind of that longer term, and you know, that longer term piece requires different, actual different technology, different strategy going into it. Talk a little bit about how you kind of break those down it It all begins with the end with with us, and it's like okay. What's the goal you know anyway? 

0:49:55

(John Dubil)

then work backwards. What is the intent? Where are we going? How do we know when we get there? 

0:50:02

(Speaker 9)

If it's long -term, then yes, that involves different design, different technologies. 

0:50:09

(Chris Dunn)

If it's hop up and intense, then that is a different approach as well. But it all becomes with the ideation, where are we going? 

0:50:19

(Brendon Hamlin)

What's the end result? And from a tactical aspect, we have visual assets being designed from the get -go, right? So we're saying, OK, we envision your environment could be this with the help of, you know, Blue Hive. You know, we think your environment can look like this. And here's where that technology can help support what Blue Hive has been envisioning. So we can come into the party that way and say, oh, yeah, here's some of the drawings that, you know, that help support that. 

0:50:52

(Brendon Hamlin)

So one thing I do like what Ice Nine has always done is they start everything with a design mindset. 

0:51:00

(Chris Dunn)

And, you know, what is the end? How do we get there? And what do you want out of this? What is the impact you're looking for? 

0:51:09

(Brendon Hamlin)

So start at the end for everything. It depends whether it's fast, slow, or permanent. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Brandon, what are your thoughts as we get ready to go into our closing? And we're going to hear maybe a couple gold nuggets that John's going to circle back to. I think that the idea that a booth or a conference experience is not just one way, and that the experience that you're walking into should 

0:51:50

(Brendon Hamlin)

really be immersive of that brand. 

0:51:54

(John Dubil)

And that there's a lot of evolution, I think, that's happening that's really great that I think is now really, really turning into more than just a stage for sales guys to try to get leads, you know, it's, it's a, which is great. 

0:52:09

(Chris Dunn)

I mean, that's why that's what it's for at the bottom, bottom line. But there's something else happening that I think is, you know, whether that's the evolution of technology or, or design, or both, or the integration of the two that are really making these things more immersive and really more of an experience. And it's not, it's not It's not so transactional. So I think that's what's exciting to see out there happening now. And on your end, I mean, that's the win, right? When you're capturing content and you see the attendees responding in kind. 

0:52:44

(Speaker 4)

We were hoping people were going to react like this, but when we see it actually happening, and that's the magic that the brand's kind of going after, and you guys are there to capture that. 

0:52:53

(Chris Dunn)

And then that content that you've created, creates the momentum to kind of push that forward. 

0:52:57

(John Dubil)

Well, it just creates a better story, you know, if the design of that experience is that much more immersive and that much more engaging, anything I'm creating in connection with that is just going to be that much better. So it is after, it's not the experience, you're not having that moment. You know, I'm always searching for those goosebump moments in the work that we do. But I also know that, you know, like when you walk into a stadium, football stadium, baseball stadium, whatever it is, like there's that moment of seeing it and the awe of it that I love. And so I'm trying to translate that into content. So the better you guys can do your job, the better I can do my job. 

0:53:38

(John Dubil)

And then it all just is that much more impactful. Perfectly agreed. Perfectly summed up. All right, John, we're starting to wrap it up here. This has been an awesome conversation. I really appreciate it. 

0:53:51

(John Dubil)

Thank you so much for sharing with us. Um, it's been a great deep dive and hopefully folks that are listening and watching, um, we'll get a lot from it. Um, yeah. So John, just a couple of, uh, a couple of things circling back on or, or putting a pin in or, or something that maybe we didn't get to that you want to kind of leave our audience with that can maybe move the needle a little bit for them. Yeah. Um, I think, you know, it's one that I don't think we got to, and it really just came to me as, as Brendan was talking as well. 

0:54:21

(John Dubil)

It's, you know. We exist because we want to measure things too, right? So nobody pays us to do all this stuff without some sort of post, right? It's, you know, when it's all said and done, something happens, people either buy something, or they go back and they're motivated, or they, you know, whatever they whatever, whatever action we want them to take. So and that has to be measured. And so include everybody in that measurement, right? 

0:54:46

(John Dubil)

So don't just walk away. And you know, your technology companies can help help you capture measurement to write data is king. So, and guess who's got more wires run over that space than anybody else. So, you know, you can, you can use them, you know, yeah, it's like miles and miles of wires. So, you know, so the same content that can push stuff out can actually bring stuff into, but, you know, back to that energy. I, I used, I love to this day, I. 

0:55:13

(John Dubil)

When people come in to a hall, I'm looking at their faces. I'm not looking at the stage or the booth. I'm watching the faces and it still gives me goosebumps. 

0:55:23

(Speaker 9)

And that's my feedback, right? 

0:55:25

(Chris Dunn)

But that doesn't fly in Peoria. So we have to come back with data and some measurement and include everybody in that. 

0:55:35

(Brendon Hamlin)

So when you have a post and I include it, everybody should have some sort of post 

0:55:40

(John Dubil)

I hate to use the term, I get yelled at for post -mortem, because I'm told that's negative. 

0:55:44

(Speaker 6)

But it's basically, you know, you talk about things afterwards. 

0:55:49

(Chris Dunn)

And you know, instead of saying, yeah, this went great, this didn't go so great. 

0:55:52

(John Dubil)

No, by the way, coffee was cold, the food was terrible. you know, talk about how it all you know, what went well and what didn't and talk about what came out of it. 

0:56:00

(Chris Dunn)

I mean, some of the best things I ever worked on. 

0:56:02

(Speaker 5)

I heard the results. 

0:56:03

(Speaker 8)

And we heard that, oh, gosh, you know, we had somebody, somebody signed up for a million dollar account as an active trader after one of our roadshows, you know, we're like, great. 

0:56:13

(Speaker 4)

You know, the team, you know, the team got one, you know, now we have somebody who, you know, we went out to get active traders. 

0:56:19

(Chris Dunn)

Now we got, you know, somebody dropped a million dollar check on show for, you know, they went in the sign. So stuff like that, you know, because that does cascade down to everybody and we say, aha, we did something good. So let's keep that going. So include everybody in your measurements because it does carry forward and they'll have better ideas for next time. So. 

0:56:41

(John Dubil)

Perfect. All right. That's a great way to cap it off. other than the fact that I'm noticing that we all should be we should be getting sponsorships by Warby Parker or someone with a pretty excessively handsome gentleman with uh with with excellent eyewear. That's right yes. I broke mine a while ago so these are new so. 

0:57:07

(John Dubil)

Okay there you go. I thought you were going to say maybe they're all taped together and they're actually going to fall off. No, the old ones were. I had to tape down the middle. 

0:57:15

(Chris Dunn)

Perfect. 

0:57:16

(Speaker 5)

That's a good look. 

0:57:17

(Chris Dunn)

That's a good look. 

0:57:18

(Speaker 7)

Awesome. 

0:57:19

(Speaker 6)

Well, John, this has been wonderful. 

0:57:20

(Chris Dunn)

Thanks so much for coming in and spending some time with us, sharing. What's a great way for people to reach out? Because I'm sure after listening to all this, they're like, how do I get a hold of John? What's the best way? Well, we're obviously available at our website. 

0:57:34

(Speaker 5)

you know, uh, ice nine productions .com 

0:57:37

(Chris Dunn)

com and we're on LinkedIn and, uh, uh, not sure if there's a phone number on there, but, uh, you know, I don't think people even call anymore, but. Yeah, so now I'd say, you know, Einstein Productions will get you where you want to go. 

0:57:52

(John Dubil)

LinkedIn will get you where you want to go. And, you know, feel free to, you know, reach out to me anytime. 

0:58:00

(Speaker 4)

You know, my own phone number, I'm happy to give it 781 -400 -4024. And I'll be happy to get you back, get back to you and, and get you where you need to be. But the main thing is communicate early and often. Because that's what your brand expects and what your target audiences expect. Perfect, perfect. All right, fantastic. 

0:58:23

Well, that's great. We're here. Look at that. We're rolling in just, you know, 59 minutes into the toolbox, which is perfect. So I hope everybody enjoyed the conversation today. We will be happy to field any kind of questions that you may have. 

0:58:41

So it's been a good one. Looking forward to seeing you guys all out there eventing trade shows and events and activations and all that good stuff. Cheers to you all. Have a great rest of the week. And thanks for stopping by. Thanks, everybody. 

0:58:57

Enjoy it.