EMT #61 with Jessica Sibila - Advocacy, Education & Industry Change

The trade show industry continues to evolve, but one challenge remains at the center of nearly every exhibitor conversation: cost.

In this episode of Event Marketer’s Toolbox, Chris Dunn and Dana Esposito welcome back Jessica Sibila, Executive Director of The Exhibitor Advocate, for a timely discussion about rising exhibition costs, exhibitor advocacy, education, and what it will take to create a more sustainable future for the events industry.

One year after her first appearance on the show, Jessica shares how The Exhibitor Advocate has grown to more than 1,300 members and expanded its educational resources, research initiatives, and industry partnerships. The conversation explores the realities exhibitors are facing today, why collaboration is essential across the event ecosystem, and how organizers, suppliers, and exhibitors can work together to improve outcomes for everyone.

Rising Costs Continue to Be the Industry's Biggest Challenge

According to Jessica, exhibitor costs remain the number one concern across the industry. Through The Exhibitor Advocate's 2025 Annual Survey of Exhibition Rates, exhibitors continue reporting significant increases in material handling, labor, electrical services, and other show-related expenses.

These costs directly impact exhibitors' ability to invest in the experiences, activations, technology, and engagement strategies that ultimately drive ROI and attendee value.

Exhibitors Need a Seat at the Table

One of the central themes of the conversation is the importance of exhibitors becoming active participants in industry conversations.

Jessica explains that many exhibitors direct frustrations toward their exhibit houses or service providers, when in reality many cost-related decisions originate elsewhere in the event ecosystem. Meaningful change happens when exhibitors communicate directly with show organizers and become part of the discussion around long-term event sustainability.

Better Partnerships Create Better Events

The discussion highlights the need for stronger collaboration between exhibitors, organizers, service contractors, and suppliers.

When every stakeholder understands the challenges faced by others, it becomes easier to find solutions that improve the overall event experience. The goal is not simply reducing costs, but creating healthier business models that allow exhibitors to invest more in attendee engagement, product demonstrations, and memorable experiences.

Education Remains a Critical Need

The industry continues experiencing workforce shifts, budget consolidation, and new professionals entering event marketing roles.

To address these challenges, The Exhibitor Advocate has expanded its educational offerings with templates, benchmarking tools, budgeting resources, sustainability guides, AI education, advocacy templates, and training resources designed to help exhibitors make more informed decisions and communicate more effectively with leadership teams.

AI Presents New Opportunities

Jessica also discusses the growing role of AI in event planning and management.

From helping exhibitors measure event success to simplifying complex exhibitor service manuals, AI presents opportunities to reduce friction, improve efficiency, and help event professionals make better decisions.

Innovation Requires Listening

One of the most encouraging themes of the episode is that many show organizers are listening.

Jessica shares examples of organizers implementing exhibitor advisory councils, conducting exhibitor-specific surveys, and finding creative ways to support exhibitors while maintaining successful events. The shows that actively seek exhibitor feedback are often the ones seeing the strongest long-term growth.

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

Website: https://www.exhibitoradvocacy.com/

2025 Annual Survey of Exhibition Rates:
https://www.exhibitoradvocacy.com/resources/TEA-DWN-ASER-2025

Membership Information:
https://www.exhibitoradvocacy.com/membership-levels

This conversation serves as an important reminder that the future of trade shows depends on collaboration.

Exhibitors, organizers, suppliers, and service providers all play a role in creating successful events. By improving communication, sharing data, investing in education, and rethinking long-standing business models, the industry has an opportunity to create more sustainable and impactful event experiences for everyone involved.

Jessica's message is clear: meaningful change is possible, but it requires exhibitors to become active participants in the conversation.

👉🏼 Join us for more insightful discussions like this by tuning into 'Event Marketer's Toolbox,' where industry leaders share the tools, tactics, and trends driving success in the event world.

This Show is sponsored by Blue Hive 

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Transcript

0:00:04

(Chris Dunn)

Hey, everybody. 

0:00:05

(Chris Dunn)

Welcome to Event Marketers Toolbox. How's it going out there? I'm Chris Dunn. I am with Blue Hive Exhibits, and we've got some great folks with us today in the studio. Episode 61, we've got Jessica with us. Just a heads up, we are, in fact, recording this ahead of time, but we're going to be in the comments. 

0:00:22

(Chris Dunn)

So feel free to jump in and get involved. We're going to drop in some links and so forth as we go. So we really want to make this an interactive and really special episode where you can kind of get involved. We'll be there commenting along with you and hopefully we'll get some great chats going. So feel free to contribute and get involved. Let us know where you're coming in from and we look forward to everybody getting a lot from this episode. 

0:00:45

(Chris Dunn)

Thank you so much. 

0:00:46

(Jessica Sibila)

Everybody knows Dana, Dana Esposito, our SVP of strategy. 

0:00:49

(Chris Dunn)

Hey, Dana, how's it going? 

0:00:50

(Dana Esposito)

Good, good. 

0:00:51

(Dana Esposito)

Everything's good. Yeah. So I've been here at Blue Hive a handful of years, but in the industry almost 30. And I'm very excited because today we have Jessica Sibila with us. So Jessica, you want to introduce yourself? Although I know you've been on the podcast before, this is your second time. 

0:01:08

(Dana Esposito)

Keith, is anybody new? 

0:01:09

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah, so I am the Executive Director of The Exhibitor Advocate. 

0:01:14

(Jessica Sibila)

We are the only nonprofit trade association wholly dedicated to exhibitor success. I too have been in the industry a little while. It's been over 25 years. And I started off on the show management side. So I had a little bit of experience on that side of the industry, but spent the majority of my career as an exhibitor myself, both with kind of large corporations. in the natural products and food and beverage space, and then also for small startups as well in that same sector. 

0:01:47

(Jessica Sibila)

So we started the Exhibitor Advocate about three years ago and have been going strong ever since. So I'm excited to be here with you guys again and to have this conversation with you today. 

0:01:59

(Chris Dunn)

That's awesome. You are one of our first repeat offenders. 

0:02:02

(Jessica Sibila)

Wow, that's fantastic. I love it. 

0:02:04

(Chris Dunn)

You know, I was telling Dana earlier that trying to track Jessica down in real life is difficult because she's become quite the superstar. And everybody wants to talk to her because what they're doing is so important, I think, for the health and welfare of our business as a whole. But we saw each other real briefly at Exhibitor Live in Tampa. And literally, I'd go over to Jessica's booth to try to say hello and invite her back to the podcast. And there was always a swarm of folks around her. So when we were both down in Tampa for, I'm sorry, that was Tampa, when we were both in Vegas for the summit, experiential summit, I made sure and wrangled her and did not let her go. 

0:02:55

(Chris Dunn)

So happy to say that here she is, and thanks again for joining us. It's really great to have you here. Yeah, no, it's my pleasure. 

0:03:02

(Jessica Sibila)

And I always have time for you, Chris. I appreciate that. I think it's actually indicative of a really good thing, right? This organization was created to support exhibitors and to answer their questions and to help them with their challenges. And so when we're busy at a trade show, that's a great thing because it's why we exist. And so I'm thrilled that we were busy. 

0:03:26

(Chris Dunn)

Absolutely. On a floor when other people were standing there twiddling their thumbs, you had a throng of people. So it was almost a year ago to the date we looked it up and it was May 22nd. Episode number 21, if you want to go back and check that one out, you can hear a little bit about what we were talking about then. But hey, 375 days or so have expired since then. So I'm sure lots has kind of not necessarily changed, but advanced and whatnot. 

0:03:54

(Chris Dunn)

So I'm going to kick it back to Dana and she's going to start off the line of questioning we have. 

0:04:01

(Dana Esposito)

It sounds so dangerous. So Jessica, so in the past year, I mean, a lot's changed, a lot of good stuff. The industry is super busy, another good problem to have. Can you tell us a little bit about what it's been like for you and the Exhibitor Advocate when it comes to growth and like increased and things of that nature for you? 

0:04:25

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah, you know, it's really exciting for us because we continue to grow year over year. We are now at, I think it's around 1 ,300 members as part of our organization. So we're growing extensively every year. We've expanded the exhibitors that are part of different sectors. Just today, we announced that Kimberly Taylor from Northrop Grumman is going to join our board of directors. And so we're excited to have more sectors that are represented on our board and more voices that are helping to advise us on what they're seeing in the industry and what support they need in the different sectors that we have. 

0:05:07

(Jessica Sibila)

We've also incredibly expanded our education and have a lot more coming as well. But that is one of the things that we focused on from the very beginning was building out the resources and tools that we have that support exhibitors. So we now have templates for advocacy letters and emails that exhibitors can use to address their challenges with their show organizers or their suppliers. We have templates for RFPs, both in what you're doing for your booth materials, as well as sustainability. There's some great material there. And then we have budgeting information. 

0:05:46

(Jessica Sibila)

We have templates and benchmarks that exhibitors can use. So we continue to build that up every day so that we can make sure that we're providing the most value to exhibitors. And also recently, as Chris kind of alluded to, we were at Event Marketer, sorry, at the Experiential Marketing Summit, because we have just announced a strategic partnership with Event Marketer, where we will provide trade show education and training at EMS next year. You'll see more trade show related articles and information in the newsletters from Event Marketer. And we'll also be partnering with them on some research that will help us give a better view of what's happening in the ecosystem. Nice. 

0:06:32

(Dana Esposito)

So I love that you're also getting different sectors on your board, because different industries have different challenges or things that they really need to be cognizant of. Are there any common themes or concerns that you've been continuing to hear over the last year in particular? 

0:06:49

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah, I hate that we're still talking about the rising costs of exhibiting, but it is the number one issue and has been for a really long time. We know that 80 % of exhibitors cite cost as their number one issue. Closely related is ROI and being able to identify or measure success at an event, those two things are pervasive. And we continue to hear that from exhibitors. We did some work through the 2025 annual survey of exhibition rates. And this year, a little bit that's new is that we looked at how costs have changed since 2022, which was the first year of the report. 

0:07:33

(Jessica Sibila)

And I'm sorry to say that costs just continue to rise in the double digits. We saw material handling went up almost 22 % since 2022. The electrical outlets, I'm sorry, electrical overtime went up 41 % since 2022. These are expenses that are really putting pressure on exhibitors. And so it's no wonder that exhibitors are saying that's their number one concern. 

0:08:02

(Dana Esposito)

Yeah. When I'm thinking of say the creative part of my role and as a designer, talking to a client and taking all of these costs into consideration, you know, from the design side, we always want to make sure we meet all of their needs, their functional needs, goals, all the things, make all their wishes and dreams come true, right? But then there are costs that we can't control, like some of the ones you're talking about that are really more show service related. For me, one of my fears is that It's kind of like a cyclical thing, like a dog biting its own tail in that if I'm, say I'm working on a client and I want to make sure they have everything they need to be successful, but because of some of the costs that we can't control, like I can try to make sure like things that we're sending are lightweight, things are going to go together very quickly on show site for labor, you know, being really smart about labor hours. There's all these things that we can control. and are always cognizant of, right? 

0:09:01

(Dana Esposito)

But the things that we can't control sometimes then hinder some of the other things that the client needs to have a successful show, right? Whether it's because they needed more actual components or more demos or they actually needed something interactive, an experience, or they needed something that would be able to collect metrics and data to prove the ROI, right? So for me, it's almost like if the cost hinders some of the proof or some of the success of that, then at some point I'm like, oh, well, then there's a client not going to go to the show because the cost hindered them doing it the proper way to be successful. 

0:09:44

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah. Our exhibit house partners are in a really tough spot. We have seen from our research that 62 % of an exhibitor's budget is on non -revenue generating activities. That's show services, shipping, and booth space itself. So when you think about the amount of money that an exhibitor has to put towards the activations that are actually going to drive business for them, it gets tighter and tighter every year. How are you supposed to do something that's going to drive traffic and achieve your objectives when you have less than 40 % of your budget to do that? 

0:10:23

(Jessica Sibila)

And I think exhibitors don't understand where that pressure is coming from. They're going to you guys as their exhibit house partners and saying, I need you to sharpen your pencil. I need you to lower my budgets on these other things so that I can spend more in these areas. And what they don't realize is that they're talking to the wrong party. Where the exhibitor needs to go is to the show organizer, because it is the organizer that is negotiating the rates that exhibitors are paying on show services. And when the show organizer starts negotiating those rates on behalf of the exhibitor, it loosens up the budget so that the exhibitor can bring more products. 

0:11:06

(Jessica Sibila)

They can create a more interesting activation in their space. They can spend money to measure their success. And all of that drives opportunity for the attendee as well. So it becomes a win -win -win, but we have to get partnership from the organizer and their suppliers, the general service contractors and show service suppliers, to make that opportunity available to exhibitors. Right. 

0:11:33

(Chris Dunn)

You know, to that point, Dana and I have been working together for three or four years, ever since she came on board here. And let's say a client's got $100 ,000 for booth and services. Dana, you and I have talked about this a lot. You used to, as a designer, when you're thinking about budget, you used to carve out 30 % to 35%, maybe, something to that effect, and say, all right, I'm going to have to knock that down. Let's say I've got 70%, if it's a 30%. 

0:12:03

(Chris Dunn)

scenario. Jessica, what you've just quoted is 2x that, right? So you're talking 60%. So now a flat budget year over year yields an exhibitor potentially somewhere in the neighborhood of $40 ,000 to $50 ,000 worth of value. of the booth, the actual booth, the activation, the cool stuff, the wow factor, right? The things that are going to stop the attendee and bring them in, because we have to continue to allocate more and more money towards, you know, towards those things that, like you said, non -revenue generating, you know, costs that just are really difficult for us to get our arms around. 

0:12:40

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah, yeah, that's right. I think show organizers, especially associations, oftentimes focus on the attendee. They don't focus necessarily on what the exhibitor needs. It's sometimes seen as a benefit for the exhibitor to be there, to have the opportunity, the luxury to be able to talk to the attendee who's there at that conference. We need to shift that mindset. If associations can see exhibitors as their partner, in bringing and enticing an attendee to come to the show because they're not only going to get the education, but they're also going to get to put their hands on products and be able to experience things that will make the event memorable. 

0:13:28

(Jessica Sibila)

We have to do that for them. And there's a huge opportunity for collaboration when the show organizer is willing to work with their exhibitors. 

0:13:39

(Chris Dunn)

Yeah. So, so on, I mean, to, to illustrate that, right, Dana, I'm asking you, I was at five years ago, I was asking you to, to design a cool kick -ass $70 ,000 activation on a booth, on a booth floor. Now I'm going to ask you to do, The same thing with 45 ,000. And and you're going to look at me and go like, sure. 

0:14:03

(Dana Esposito)

Yeah, that's a very big challenge. Right. 

0:14:06

(Chris Dunn)

That's right. Right. And what's happened is that and listen, anybody who's walked the show floor is absolutely you know, they've seen this. There's a million metal frame systems out there, not to throw, you know, B -Matrix or AluVision or anything onto the bus like that. No, because they're awesome. To build with. 

0:14:24

(Dana Esposito)

Yes. 

0:14:24

(Chris Dunn)

They have allowed us to create a lighter weight, more structural sound skeleton of a booth and cover it with lovely fabric graphics, right? That's all been amazing. But what's happened is with less budgeting, more companies like us, design companies, are really forced to kind of, you know, put somebody in the entry level version of a booth space and dumbed down the architecture and the cool factor and the activation and also just to fit the budget, right? So you end up with a bunch of. Meh, meh. It's just like there's not anything that really pops. 

0:15:00

(Chris Dunn)

I'm not saying that happens all the time. But in general, right, we could walk around these shows and we can we can certainly see where the people have had to cut back in order to be there. And that downgrades the attendees experience. Right. So to your point, Jessica, like this is a cycle, right? This whole thing is cyclical. 

0:15:17

(Chris Dunn)

An exhibitor has a great show experience when the attendees come in passionate and motivated and excited. in which case has them. recording, you know, their their net scores back to the back to the show provider saying this was a frickin fantastic show. Like all of the exhibitors were great. They had some really fun things to do. Memorable. 

0:15:40

(Chris Dunn)

I learned things. I networked. I did all the things I wanted to do. Right. So it's like if we're all kind of helping ourselves, you know, scratch each other's back, everybody can be successful. But as soon as you as soon as you take part of that away, you're less than the experience for the attendee, which lessens the experience for the exhibitor who's actually paying the association to put the show on, right? 

0:16:00

(Chris Dunn)

They're the ones funding it. So we're killing the golden goose, you know? I've been using those terms for a long time. 

0:16:07

(Jessica Sibila)

And to your point, history has shown that exhibitors are savvy. And so as these barriers come at us, we get really creative with how we address them. And to your point, Chris, you know, we may have in the past done hardwall structures or, you know, heavy crates for shipping in our materials. Right. And now we're moving to modular systems, lightweight aluminum, fabric graphics, even for going crates and doing more sustainable options where we're just using straps to get our materials in. which also can open us up to damage, but it's a nice look at maybe a more sustainable way to move forward. 

0:16:51

(Jessica Sibila)

So we're making these choices because there are these barriers in front of us. And to that point, exhibitors are doing the same right now. I say oftentimes that exhibitors' backs are against the wall when it comes to budget. They have cut all of the fat for their events, and they are now cutting through the bone to be able to be at these events that they want to be at. So the choices that they are making is to reduce the size, of their booth, to limit their sponsorships, to send less staff, which then affects the interactivity. 

0:17:29

(Jessica Sibila)

The service, the relationship building. Yes. And so what they're doing is they're shifting to put that money into off -site events that for the show organizer is going to pull traffic away from their event and really affect the culture of their show. And so it's important for organizers to understand that there is a need that benefits them and their revenue in making sure that exhibitors can stay on the show floor and afford to do the kind of interactions that they want to do. 

0:18:03

(Dana Esposito)

Absolutely, because it's not just, and I come from the design side obviously, so I want to obviously preface that it's not just because I always want the booth to look really gorgeous, because of course I do, but I want it to be remembered, right? And the key to a human remembering something is to have some sort of experience that targets an emotion, whether it's surprise or happiness or or that they learned something interesting. You know, people go to shows to make connections with other industry members, to learn things, to see trends. So every time A show organizer does not look ahead from 10 ,000 feet and also down to the details at the same time to make sure that their exhibitors are protected when it comes to negotiating all those rates ahead of time. All those other things that are happening on a show site slowly deteriorate and become Working against them to your point, Jessica, because if they are like, well, I have to have a smaller booth, or I have to have less of a booth in some way, or my booth is getting closer to look kind of like everybody else's booth, you know, we're all using almost the same stuff. I'm not going to be able to have money in my budget to have something created that's going to be very memorable or educational or collect data in some way that I can prove my ROI that proves the goals we had with the show were met, you know. 

0:19:32

(Dana Esposito)

Then they start having off -site things as well and slowly what happens is a show organizer who has all this good intention is actually their show becomes a show that people aren't going to want to go to as much. They're not going to want to exhibit at, and then they're also not going to want to attend. And obviously, I am very protective of all of that. So that's why I'm so glad that the Exhibitor Advocate exists now. I don't know what else people on sort of the provider side, like Blue Hive, and there's so many of us in the world that are trying to serve our clients and do it really well. And I think on one hand, the good thing is It's caused us to, like you said, like trim the fat off. 

0:20:16

(Dana Esposito)

Like we've become super strategic and making sure that our pencils are sharp and that we're doing all the things and lightweight and interactive. We're doing all that. I don't know what else we can do. And I'd love if you have any insight for us or people like us to not just make sure we're serving our client well, but help help with shining the light on the to the show organizer like continuing to get their help because we're sort of just in the middle we're just in the middle trying saying we want everything to be great we've done everything we can we don't know what else we can do but we we're here to help. 

0:20:54

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah a lot of exhibit houses I think want to be a great partner to their exhibitor and protect them or kind of hide from them the challenges that are coming up in the exhibition. And although I think that's nice, right, as an exhibitor, as a corporate brand marketer, you don't want the challenges brought to you. You want solutions brought to you. And exhibitors are saying, hey, I hire my exhibit house to do that for me. I understand all of that. What exhibit houses me to start getting comfortable with, in my opinion. is to start sharing these challenges with their clients. 

0:21:38

(Jessica Sibila)

And the corporate marketers need to understand that they are going to have to step in a little bit in order to make this change, because the exhibit house can't do that for you. And it's partly why the exhibitor advocate exists, so that we can help bridge that gap, to help the corporate marketer understand what the challenge is, and that it's not the exhibit house that is the challenge, it's the show. And to support the the corporate marketer in how they address that with their organizer. So I know it's comfortable to try to take it on yourselves, but I would tell every exhibit house and every supplier partner out there that this is the moment, this is the opportunity to share what's happening in the industry with your clients. educate them on what the exhibitor advocate does and help them understand the steps that they can take to make change so that we make it better for them and for everybody that goes to this show. Yeah. 

0:22:37

(Dana Esposito)

And I've, I've spoken to a client about it in the past and, um, they were like, well, why, why wouldn't they listen to you guys? And I'm like, cause we're not their customer. You're their customer. 

0:22:48

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah. 

0:22:48

(Dana Esposito)

You know, we're just a provider to them. 

0:22:50

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah. That's exactly right. 

0:22:52

(Dana Esposito)

Yeah. 

0:22:53

(Jessica Sibila)

That's what makes it really easy to do this, right? Like it's this guy, it's that guy, you know, um, the general service contractors look at the show organizer as their client, not the actual client. their client. So when the exhibitor goes to a service desk or they have a challenge with the official service contractor, sometimes they're not getting the response that they want and they don't understand why. And it's because the they're not the client. And so they have to then speak up to the show organizer because the exhibitor is their client. 

0:23:31

(Jessica Sibila)

And so that's where this happens all the time is that this isn't something that gets solved by just one party alone sharing the challenge. It requires everybody to have a seat at the table and be able to have a discussion about where the challenges are and where the solutions are as well. because it's not a one -size -fits -all. Every show is different. And it's not something that's easy necessarily to address. So it takes time for us to have these conversations and find the right way forward. 

0:24:05

(Chris Dunn)

So Jessica, you've had that seat at the table. I'm personally super curious, like you sit down with Informa as a for instance, right? They're huge. They put on an awful lot of shows and they're great. We've had at least one of their people on the show. They do a nice job, but they're not trying to be, but they're part of the problem, right? 

0:24:32

(Chris Dunn)

Let's just say we're all, this whole ecosystem is part of the problem, right? No one's setting out to create an unsustainable situation, but that's really what's happening. When you say to a show organizer, whether it's an association or a for -profit model or whatever the case may be, that you guys are becoming so expensive that people can't afford to go to the show, what do they say back to you? Do they shelf it off and say, shows have never been more sought after? that's kind of what we're seeing. Like everybody's leaning heavy into the, on the, you know, the, the in, in real life, you know, face -to -face events, but we're, we're, we're creating a, an unattainable or unsustainable situation. 

0:25:14

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah. It's a mindset shift. When I talk to show organizers, What they ask me is, how do I sell more booth space and how do I get more sponsorship dollars? It's the two sources of revenue that they think about. What they don't think about is how negotiating with their suppliers will, again, loosen up those budgets for their exhibitors so that they have more to spend in booth space and sponsorships. When we talk about the scenario that allows an exhibitor to bring in more product, create better experiences, it blows their mind. 

0:25:55

(Jessica Sibila)

They never thought about it that way before. We teach a CEM course in partnership with IAEE, where we talk about this with show organizers. And one of the testimonials that we got was that it's not just eye opening, it's eye piercing. If that doesn't tell you that you're like blown away by this idea, I don't know what does. So I don't know how we help more show organizers think about this differently, other than to keep pressing the issue. Exhibitors have to start talking to their organizers. 

0:26:33

(Jessica Sibila)

The exhibitor advocate puts out as much information as we can to show organizers to help them really understand that this is not just about exhibitors. This is an opportunity for them to raise revenue, to increase the sustainability of their, the long -term sustainability of their show. That's where the opportunity is. Yeah. 

0:26:56

(Dana Esposito)

What does, like, have you seen some success stories of things that people have done? people have worked on and things have shifted? Like, do you have any examples? 

0:27:04

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah, we had one exhibitor come to us and tell us that their material handling charges were exorbitant. They were going to a more expensive city the next year, and they were very concerned that the increase in material handling prices for their current year's show were already significantly high. What was going to happen the next year when they go to a more expensive city? So we worked with their show organizer and we did a retail rate analysis in partnership with Trade Show Logic. And we helped the association understand where there was opportunity to address show service costs. And I'm really happy to say that for that next show, they were able to get a decrease in material handling rates by 60%. 

0:27:51

(Jessica Sibila)

It was huge. The challenge is that the following year, they went right back to doing it the way they did before. And so exhibitors need to understand that you can't take your foot off the gas. You've got to keep pressing the issue. It's oftentimes not a one and done. We have to keep talking about these things. 

0:28:12

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah. 

0:28:12

(Dana Esposito)

Because if they don't, if they keep their foot on the gas, then they're actually in theory, they'll be able to reap the benefits of, you know, all of that negotiation, the modifications from the, the, the modifications from the negotiations. Because if they don't, then it's just kind of like you got a coupon for one show, which you weren't able to take the cost savings and put them into the spots where your attendees are actually experiencing the things, the dollars are actually being put into the right places. 

0:28:43

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah. 

0:28:43

(Chris Dunn)

And that's going to last for a little while, right? Because it's going to take word to get out that this is now a much more cost efficient show, which is going to just increase. all the good stuff about it, I would even think, right? 

0:28:53

(Dana Esposito)

Not just a cost -effective show, but a more impactful show, like it was worth going, right? Because if you go to a show as an attendee and you're like, it was all right, or it was better last year, or the booths weren't, the second you have that, like, and people don't exist in silos, and they say that to another person, and then it becomes, that's what the last show was. So when it comes time next year to decide if you're going to attend that show, I'm not talking about exhibit evening at it, I'm talking about attending it. Well, I don't know, it wasn't that great the next year. You may even say, maybe I'll wait a year or two and see, and then go back. Give it a couple years to see. 

0:29:31

(Dana Esposito)

And the same thing then also applies if you're exhibiting, right? You'll be like, oh, well. Because the second attendees start having that feeling, then exhibitors are going to have that feeling. And exhibitors are going to be like, well, it really wasn't that great of a turnout. Well, there was a turnout, but there weren't a lot of people coming to our space. Or we had people coming to our space, but not the right people coming to our space. 

0:29:51

(Dana Esposito)

And it's just a domino effect. So it needs to be something that happens consistently in order for everyone to benefit from it, including the show organizers themselves. Because the more cost savings they put out up front than the exhibitors, can use that to have better experiences and ROI gathering from their attendees. Their attendees can learn more, know more, better relationships are built. They're built on trust, people seeing each other face -to -face in real life, and more business will be done. And then, of course, the better the show is, all that's happening. 

0:30:25

(Dana Esposito)

Clients are going to want to have bigger booths, more experiences. They'll be spending more on sponsorships because instead of spending it on electrical or drainage, they're going to be spending it someplace else. So it actually benefits the show organizers themselves if they do this. It becomes a big cycle. 

0:30:45

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah, that's right. We look at it as a downward spiral. If you look at the pattern of an exhibitor not being able to find a positive ROI and then decreasing the way they show up the next year, and then the attendee realizing that it wasn't as great as the year before. So the attendee then deciding not to go to the show or not send as many people to the show. You get in this downward spiral and it takes two or three years for the organizer to realize what the impact of that downward spiral is. So we've got to start measuring. 

0:31:23

(Jessica Sibila)

how things are changing year over year? Is your net square footage going down? Are your sponsorship dollars going down? Do you ask your exhibitors how successful they were at the show? How much business they were able to drive? Are you able to support them in measuring their success so that they can tell each other, hey, this was a great show to be at. 

0:31:47

(Jessica Sibila)

If you're not doing those things, that downward spiral is gonna be incredibly detrimental. 

0:31:53

(Dana Esposito)

And by the time they realize it, if they do realize it, it could be too late. That's right. 

0:31:58

(Jessica Sibila)

Yep. That's right. 

0:31:59

(Chris Dunn)

Right. Because it takes, it will take a while to build that back up, even if, even if you are able to do it. And, you know, I think we've all kind of heard, you know, uh, Chicago a number of years ago was set to lose some really big shows because they were just, the exhibitors got together, right. And they used their voice and they, they voted with their pocketbooks. And they said, we are no longer willing to pay these rates. And basically that, you know, That got everybody at the table and Chicago negotiated and they reeled back some of the things that they've been doing. 

0:32:27

(Chris Dunn)

But like you said, if you don't keep your foot on the gas, those things can go backwards. I think some industries and some vertical markets have done a better job advocating based on what they're doing. As a for instance, we do a lot of work at IMTS, International Manufacturing. And they're bringing in these massive machines, right? It doesn't take a scientist to look at it and go like, I have got a 40 ,000 pound machine. 

0:32:52

(Chris Dunn)

I can't charge somebody $200 per 100 weight for that. So we're going to have to create a tiered scenario where we make it more affordable for these people to bring these machines in. Because at the end of the day, you look at that overall show and you're like, that's a win for the city of Chicago, for AMTS, for everybody involved, if you do it and keep it Listen, it's still expensive. Let's not pretend it's not, but make it into something that works. We need, I think, more of those conversations happening where people can come together and everybody can walk away with some sort of a win. 

0:33:26

(Jessica Sibila)

And advocating does work. I mean, we recently saw a show where they tried to roll out a fuel surcharge on material handling and shipping services two weeks before the show. And the exhibitors said no. Absolutely not. We've budgeted for the show. We're planning all of our things. 

0:33:45

(Jessica Sibila)

We're set and locked in on this. We can't afford a 15 % fuel surcharge out of nowhere. And I'm very happy to say that within, I think it was 24 to 48 hours, the organizer rolled that policy back. And it's not to say that you can always see that quick of a change, but the exhibitors spoke up. the exhibitors expressed the concern that they had and the burden that it would put on them. And because it wasn't one exhibitors problem, it was all the exhibitors saying together, this is not going to work for us. 

0:34:21

(Jessica Sibila)

The organizer was able to make those changes. Again, it's not a one size fits all, but we need to start having exhibitors speak up and we need organizers to start listening to their exhibitors. 

0:34:37

(Chris Dunn)

Well, it's, it's, I guess, it's really good to hear that people are doing that and you guys are being a part of that solution. Again, I think we, you know, touched on it, right? Here we are in the middle of 2026. I keep waiting for the shoe to drop because of the war and the increase in gas prices and just costs are so difficult to wrangle. And yet at the same time, companies desire to participate in events and do face -to -face marketing, I think everybody's doubling down on it because they're tired of not getting results with the promises of everything's AI and everything's digital and we don't need to talk to people anymore. We can just, you know, let the robots do all the things, right? 

0:35:21

(Chris Dunn)

It's like, thank God we're not there. Yeah, we still have three of us have jobs and many other people in our industry. But things are, you know, always shifting, they'll never stay exactly the same. So this, what do you I guess, see, we've kind of been talking and there's a bit of a bit of a negative and frustrating tenor on the conversation. Let's flip that a little bit, right? We're 35 minutes in. 

0:35:43

(Chris Dunn)

We're going to put some optimism into this thing. What are you seeing from a positive standpoint, things that are either have been working or conversations maybe associations hadn't been willing to sit at the table in the past, now they are. 

0:35:59

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah, two thirds of exhibitors tell us that they still find value in trade shows and events. That's incredibly positive. And we should be leading with that, right? It's important, especially in the landscape of AI. Trade shows and events are not going anywhere. We're not seeing the death of this channel. 

0:36:20

(Jessica Sibila)

We're seeing a shift, yes, but our marketers want to be face -to -face. They want to have their customers and feel their products. And so I think especially as AI becomes more pervasive and perhaps we get to a place where maybe we can't trust what we see anymore, I think being face -to -face is going to be critical for businesses. having the opportunity to meet with the staff person, the employee of the company, and not just, to your point, Chris, a robot or a hologram of something. that's going to be critical for building business and building trust and loyalty. 

0:37:04

(Jessica Sibila)

So I think although we're in this place where costs are rising and exhibitors are making different choices, I don't think they're choosing to walk away. They're trying to figure out how they make their spend more impactful. And so that's where I think we have a great opportunity to help exhibitors find those ways to bring impact, and they want to. They want to bring things that have that pizzazz. do immersive experiences that are memorable. It's one of the reasons why we partnered with Event Marketer, because when you talk about consumer events or immersive events, that's the pizzazz that I think sometimes we miss in the trade show world. 

0:37:51

(Jessica Sibila)

And so bringing those two marketers together, which Right now, a lot of times both of those roles have been combined in companies. So now the one person is tasked with both. I think as we think about new ways, innovative ways to bring the experience to our customers, I think we're going to find some different approaches that are very successful. And so it's a really exciting time to be a part of this channel and have some white space and say, opportunity to innovate. 

0:38:29

(Chris Dunn)

Nice, nice. I'm just, I'm thinking of some examples of shows that have really kind of stepped up. I think they've listened to their clients and they've changed the way that they go to market and then what they do. Shop Talk has always done a really great job of creating very engaging spaces. Money 2020 was a show I went to a few years ago. They do an amazing job of creating a show floor where no one really ever leaves, right? 

0:38:58

(Chris Dunn)

There's all the breakout sessions are there and the speed dating, you know, networking things. and all of those things and like everybody's staying around and the exhibitors get the benefit of it because it's not like, you know, you get a rush from, you know, 12 to 1 o 'clock when people come in for the lunch hour, you know, networking stuff, but then everybody runs back out to the classes and then the exhibit floor is now empty, you know. So, I think there's just like all of the different groups that are involved in this can learn from each other and realize that like we got to look at the big picture, the whole ecosystem to understand what everybody needs so we can make this overall experience really impactful for everybody. 

0:39:37

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah, we've seen a lot of show organizers that have really stepped up in this time. They've really stepped up to listen to their exhibitors to try to understand what the exhibitors need. And I know personally that there are some shows out there that are trying to figure out how they support their exhibitors in doing off -floor events, while also maintaining their presence on the floor, because that's what the exhibitor wants. And so they're trying to get creative. They're trying to figure out new ways to do things that benefit the exhibitor. And those are organizations that we applaud. 

0:40:18

(Jessica Sibila)

We want every show business to have an exhibitor advisory council. We want them to be putting out a post -show survey to their exhibitors that's specific to the exhibitor experience so that they can take that data and figure out how they make their show better year over year. And exhibitors will tell them what they need. And the shows that are doing that you're seeing those shows grow and really find find a foothold in this kind of changing landscape of cost and A . I. 

0:40:53

(Jessica Sibila)

and all these things that are happening. 

0:40:55

(Dana Esposito)

We've touched, well you had started to say a few of the things that Exhibitor Advocate is specifically creating like templates and things of that nature and advice about having boards and things like that. Can you give us a rundown of some of the educational support that Exhibitor Advocate puts out there for its members? 

0:41:16

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah, so we have over 40 free tools for our members. Membership is always free in our organization. We're a non -profit and our mission is to help exhibitors succeed. So we have a number of resources that support them. Free resources include things like the advocacy templates. You can literally copy and paste that language, input your own specific details, and send an email to your show organizer. 

0:41:44

(Jessica Sibila)

You also have the opportunity to download the sustainability sourcing compass. That gives you RFP language if you want to incorporate sustainability into your into your program, and then it gives you the contractual language as well. So these are the free resources that are available. We also have a resource specifically for show organizers that helps you ask the right questions in your post -show survey. So you can pull down that information I believe that's a paid resource. 

0:42:17

(Jessica Sibila)

Our paid education for individuals is $2 .99 a year, but what you get with that is over a hundred resources and tools. The 2025 annual survey of exhibition rates that we just put out, and we have four years of that report, will give you benchmarking rates for materials and labor in over 23 cities. And we've done that for the past past four years. So it's incredibly helpful for exhibitors as they budget for future shows in different cities. It's helpful for show organizers to benchmark their rates and negotiate with their suppliers. And it's helpful for the suppliers to benchmark their rates and understand how they compare to other cities, which may be trying to woo away a trade show. 

0:43:05

(Jessica Sibila)

We mentioned the Exhibitor Advisory Council how -to guide. We have budgeting templates as well. And we have a ton of stuff on AI. We're doing a number of things right now, putting out education on how to prompt AI to measure your event. This is really important information that's gonna help exhibitors understand how to use AI be more efficient. And all of that is available on our resources section. 

0:43:40

(Jessica Sibila)

So it's robust, for sure. 

0:43:42

(Dana Esposito)

Yeah, that's great. Because if I tried to put myself into an exhibitor's shoes for a minute, I'm thinking I already have so many other things going on, right? And then And to do another thing, I have to almost lobby for myself and the other people exhibiting at the show. And then also, where do I start, right? Where do I start and what do I say and what's the jargon so that they hear me? And so that seems like it would take some of the pain, the time and the intimidation factor away because there is this great resource that's already been built like, hey, this is how you do it. 

0:44:20

(Dana Esposito)

These are the people you're specifically looking to speak to. This is the language they need to hear it in. So that's great. 

0:44:26

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah. When I started out, As an early event marketer, I didn't understand how to speak the language to my leadership teams. I didn't understand the right words to say, how to say them, when to say them. And so one of the tools that we created recently in partnership with Kimberly Key was how to tell the story of your budget. So it's not just bringing the number, right? It's not just saying we're over a budget by X percent and that's just how it is. 

0:44:58

(Jessica Sibila)

It's telling the story in the right way that helps leadership understand why costs have increased to the percentage that they have, why your budget didn't keep pace, and what you need to be able to ensure that you keep pace in the future. So there's some great language in there that exhibitors can use to tell that story. And when we think about new event marketers, new exhibit marketers coming into the space, Some of them may only be in this role for a couple of years and then they move on. So the Exhibitor Advocate is about to launch some short videos that will help those newer folks to our industry understand what this industry is all about. And we'll have complimentary resources that go with every episode so that they can not only have something fun to give them a a brief tutorial of what we do, but also have that tool that actually helps them in their day -to -day job in the future. So keep your eyes open for that. 

0:46:03

(Jessica Sibila)

It's coming soon. 

0:46:04

(Dana Esposito)

That's great. Absolutely. sounds like it takes a lot of pain away and also exploits their knowledge base. 

0:46:12

(Jessica Sibila)

It does. It does. It also takes more time to create than we realize. 

0:46:16

(Dana Esposito)

That's always the way. 

0:46:20

(Chris Dunn)

Jessica, do you know, Do you have data with regards to like your membership if you were to look into the 1300 or so people or companies that are members? What type of movement are we seeing with new people? coming into the industry based on maybe years of experience or something to that effect. I think back to not only Exhibitor Show, but also EMS, and there was so many first -time people who were there. They weren't necessarily brand new to the industry, but it did kind of correlate that there was a lot more newer people experiencing these events, and they had not been in the industry for maybe all that long, or they were experienced in something else, and then they kind of fell into the industry. What do you see, what do you know within your org? 

0:47:06

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah, I wish that I had hard data for you. Anecdotally, what I can say is that we've seen a lot of layoffs in corporate marketing teams. We have seen a lot of exhibitors that have gone from a corporate brand marketing role to maybe a supplier role in the industry. We see a lot of shifting from company to company as people are moving around. We see a lot of roles where there was an event marketer and an exhibit marketer, and now that role is combined into one. And that person is being asked to do a lot more with a lot less or tighter budgets. 

0:47:50

(Jessica Sibila)

So I don't have the hard data, but what I do know is that I think across the industry as a whole, we're dealing with a lot of new people to our industry. We don't have the historical knowledge that we had prior to COVID. And as challenging as that is, I also think that it brings us to a very positive place where our industry employees are going to start asking, why do you do it this way? And we're going to get fresh thinking. And we're going to get people that see things differently, that come from different industries and have ideas that maybe we've never considered before. 

0:48:33

(Jessica Sibila)

That is incredibly positive to me, because I think this model needs shifting. I think we need to think about this channel differently. and the more new people that we can get that can ask those questions and challenge those assumptions, I think the better off we'll be to create a sustainable industry for the future. 

0:48:55

(Chris Dunn)

I know this is something that Dana's always been focused on or has been focused on for quite a while with her involvement with EDPA with regards to the future workforce and making sure that we're being found by bright young talent that maybe had no idea you know, what are these kooky people doing in this, what is an exhibit? I don't even know what that is or, you know, what is an event per se. I will say that Dana, and I think I mentioned this to you, and Jessica, maybe you met some of these folks when we were at EMS, but there was 15 or 20 young kids from Cal Poly and there's an experiential marketing program at Cal Poly and I was so excited to talk to them I was standing in line getting a coffee at one of the booths and there was a whole gaggle of these obviously very young you know 22 year olds mostly women who I was with and I was so excited to talk to them and just you know they had a bunch of questions for me and like how long have you been doing this and I was like literally for longer than you've been born I've been at the same company and then before that I was there 10 years before that um but it was very exciting and um and obviously you guys are seeing something similar right if you're bothering to create uh educational programs and courses and so forth for people who are new to the industry then you've identified this as a challenge, an opportunity to educate people, to fast track it, right? Because the more that we share what we know with this younger generation coming in, the faster they get to where they need to be. And we lift everything, right? 

0:50:33

(Chris Dunn)

The rising tide raises all ships, as it were. And hopefully we can all kind of work together to create a sustainable situation. 

0:50:41

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah, I love the work that EDPA is doing on workforce development. I think it's incredibly important that we bring in younger employees into this industry that we create skilled labor again. We lost a lot of skilled labor, you know, guys that I'd worked with for 20 years and knew everything there was to know. I walk on show site now and they're just not there anymore. So the more that we can do to build up that labor force and bring qualified skilled labor to our shows, it's going to make everything that we do more efficient, both for the supplier side and for the exhibitor side. side and everyone wins in that scenario. 

0:51:24

(Jessica Sibila)

So we're very supportive of EDPA. Just think that the world of that organization and everything they're doing to get involved in colleges and universities and grow that program, supporting unions and opportunities for more people to come into the trades and be able to support our industry long term. It's really exciting to see. 

0:51:48

(Dana Esposito)

Chris, we're at 51 minutes. 

0:51:52

(Chris Dunn)

Yes. I was just thinking the same thing. So thank you, Dana. We are we're going to start wrapping it up. And I think, you know, a couple of things on my mind, first of all, is Jessica, thank you so much for coming back. I honestly I feel like this should be a yearly thing, like what you guys are doing is so important. 

0:52:09

(Chris Dunn)

The strides you've made in the last year since we last spoke are are tremendous. And I'm sure You know, let's talk again next year, relatively the same time, and hopefully we'll see even more advances, more, more growth in the membership of your organization, which just means more people paying attention to like, we can't just all sit back and go like. Well, it is what it is. Shit gets more expensive and we're just going to have to deal with it, right? Like at some point that just doesn't work anymore. We have to figure out how to make it work better. 

0:52:37

(Chris Dunn)

So two things. First of all, how do people get a hold of you? Like what's the best way to reach you if they want to chat or reach out? 

0:52:46

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah, the website is exhibitoradvocacy . com. We have a ton of resources there. We have a get help So if there's something that we can do to help, you let us know, and then you can join us. Membership is always free. Like I said, it's really important that we gather a group of exhibitors and suppliers and show organizers. 

0:53:07

(Jessica Sibila)

We have members from all different stakeholder groups, but join us as a member, and then you'll get that information about what's happening in the industry and how we address it together. Membership is always free, but if you do want to upgrade your educational access, we offer individual individual education access at $299 a year, or for your entire company at $1 ,200 a year. So nominal fees that give you access to a ton of resources that help you and your company navigate the challenges of the show floor. 

0:53:39

(Chris Dunn)

Right. Because the more that we all know, the better. That's right. That's right. Great. OK, so now we know how to get a hold of Jessica. 

0:53:48

(Chris Dunn)

And we always like to ask a little favor of our guests before they head out is, you know, if you could leave maybe to one or two little gold nuggets, you know, with our listeners and our viewers on, you know, Maybe we already talked about it. You want to go back, put a pin in it, and really draw attention? Or did we not get to something that you really want to kind of make mention of that's worthy? 

0:54:11

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah, I'll give you two things. The first one we talked about, changing the model. I think that we, and it may not be across the board, but I think there's an opportunity for our organizers to look at the financial model of their trade show and think about ways to do it differently. How can we make it more affordable for our exhibitors while also making it still compelling for the suppliers that make the show floor happen? I believe that there's a way to do this differently that works for all the different parties where we can all still make money. because we live in a capitalist society, but yet allows us to make this channel better financially for everybody and more sustainable for everybody. 

0:54:57

(Jessica Sibila)

The other thing, the second thing that I think people don't talk about enough, and I think it's going to come up more in the future, is the exhibitor service manual. Exhibitors don't understand all the information that's in there. Oftentimes not all the information is in that service manual. It's hard to navigate. It's hard to know as an exhibitor all the different things that you have to do. Clicking around, it's, you know, it's easy to miss something. 

0:55:29

(Jessica Sibila)

So I think that we really need to think about how we create and manage exhibit service manuals in the future. I think AI can help us with that. I think there's a huge efficiency opportunity and innovation opportunity with AI around that. I know there's a lot of companies that are doing some things with that, but I think that's the number one thing that would help exhibitors really understand their budgets, understand what they have to do at a show, so they're not getting surprised with unexpected costs on site. 

0:56:07

(Chris Dunn)

Yeah, great suggestion. We obviously know that AI is everywhere. We're being found more and more and more. Just, you know, the When inbound leads come in, as a matter of fact, it's Dana and I who see them. And there's, I don't know how many people are like, Jat, GBT led me to you. So people are using it in many different ways. 

0:56:32

(Chris Dunn)

But it's great that we've all got to kind of attack this problem and use the resources that we have, the technology and so forth to try to figure it out and make it better for everybody. 

0:56:42

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah, I can imagine a scenario where an exhibitor can put into a custom GPT, have I done everything I need to do? And is this budget accurate? And get an answer that they can rely on. Right. Like they can do that now, but it may not hold. Right. 

0:56:59

(Jessica Sibila)

Right. Right. Maybe a little iffy. Right. So can we work with our suppliers to get to a place where we can ask those questions and feel confident going into a show that we've ticked all the boxes, that our budgets are secure and that we're not going to be surprised on site. Awesome. 

0:57:18

(Chris Dunn)

Dana especially likes it when they come with a, with a rendering of something they've created in AI and say, can you build this? And you look at it. 

0:57:26

(Jessica Sibila)

It's all this heavy stuff floating. 

0:57:30

(Dana Esposito)

Yeah, but not structurally sound. Yeah. I think Chris is frozen. 

0:57:36

(Jessica Sibila)

We lost Chris. 

0:57:37

(Dana Esposito)

Yep. 

0:57:39

(Jessica Sibila)

Well, those, you know, AI is great for bringing in those ideas, I think, for exhibitors, especially that want to play and maybe don't want to spend the time with their supplier partners in all the different ideas that they want to throw into a design. 

0:57:55

(Dana Esposito)

I mean, it's great for inspiration, but, and then you still need, at least for now, you still need a human to figure it out. And especially if you are seeking a rental exhibit from your supplier, they're still going to need to make sure or they have all of those components, not only existing in their inventory, but available at the time that your show needs to happen. So yeah, it's great for inspiration. I'm sure someday it'll be even better at doing all the things. 

0:58:23

(Jessica Sibila)

Yeah, and Dana, I think that's where you as their strategic partner becomes really important as well, when you can help them understand that it's not just the design, but it's how the interaction happens and how you drive business from that interaction. That's the benefit of working with a strategic partner like Bluehive, instead of just relying on AI to be that inspiration for your design. 

0:58:53

(Dana Esposito)

to look gorgeous. I literally want the design to look gorgeous. to stop people in the track, but I also still want people to be compelled to go into that space and learn something. I want there to be a long -term relationship that's built because they had an interaction at that exhibit. So, you know, we're going to ask all those questions about, you know, who are you, who are you speaking to at the show? Because it may be different at this show versus their next show. 

0:59:19

(Dana Esposito)

Maybe doctors at one show might be nurses the next show. So that message, even if it's the same message, the delivery of that message might change. There's so many things, other questions beyond plugging something into AI. And so I'm glad we're still able to be those detectives to help the clients be really happy and successful. It's a valuable service. Yeah. 

0:59:39

(Dana Esposito)

Nice to see you, Chris. 

0:59:40

(Chris Dunn)

Awesome. Yeah, it's nice to be back. Thank you very much. I'm glad that technology had an opportunity to fail us again before the show actually ended. So all good there. Let's wrap it up. 

0:59:53

(Chris Dunn)

Let's say thank you very much, but don't leave because I wanted to try something else also. So thanks, Dana, for joining us. Jessica, always a pleasure. Thank you for sharing everything that you know, and you guys are doing the Lord's work here. So with regards to, you know, helping our industry kind of move forward, so appreciate all of your efforts. Everybody, get a hold of Jessica, get a hold of the exhibitor advocate, reach out, become a member. 

1:00:19

(Chris Dunn)

you know, this is important stuff and it's only going to benefit you and help you guys, you know, get a bigger bang for your, your bucket that shows you guys that I want to go to. So appreciate that everybody have a great rest of your day and rest of your week and happy eventing. Everybody take care. 

1:00:37

(Jessica Sibila)

Thanks so much. You guys, it was a pleasure being here. 

1:00:40

(Chris Dunn)

Absolutely.