EMT #62 with Al Mercuro and Laura Palker - Building the Next Generation of Event Professionals

The events industry powers experiences, drives economic impact, and employs millions of people worldwide. Yet for decades, many of the careers behind those experiences have remained largely invisible.

In this episode of Event Marketer’s Toolbox, Chris Dunn and Brendon Hamlin welcome Laura Palker, President of the Events Education & Workforce Development Federation (EE-WDF), and Al Mercuro, Strategic Marketing & Client Engagement at Genesis Exhibits and EE-WDF board member, for a conversation about workforce development, industry visibility, and the future of event careers.

The discussion explores how the pandemic exposed major workforce challenges across the live events industry, why attracting new talent has become critical, and how EE-WDF is working to connect students, educators, employers, and policymakers through education, advocacy, and awareness initiatives.

The Events Industry Is Bigger Than Most People Realize

One of the central themes of the conversation is that the events industry remains largely invisible to the public despite its enormous economic impact.

Laura shares that during the pandemic, industry leaders realized just how interconnected the events ecosystem truly is. The loss of millions of event industry jobs had ripple effects far beyond trade shows and conferences, impacting communities, families, schools, and local economies.

The Pandemic Exposed a Workforce Crisis

The creation of the National Trade Show Alliance—later evolving into the Events Education & Workforce Development Federation—was driven by a simple realization: the industry needed a long-term workforce strategy.

As organizations shut down and talent left the industry, leaders recognized that rebuilding would require more than simply reopening events. It would require attracting, educating, and retaining the next generation of professionals.

Why the Industry Calls Itself "The Invisible Industry"

Many people enjoy concerts, sporting events, festivals, conferences, and trade shows without ever thinking about the thousands of professionals who make those experiences possible.

Laura and Al discuss how event professionals often work behind the scenes, receiving little visibility despite being responsible for logistics, production, installation, transportation, technology, and attendee experiences. The challenge now is making those career paths visible to students and job seekers.

Creating Awareness Through Education

One of EE-WDF's most exciting initiatives is the development of educational resources designed to introduce students and educators to careers in events.

The organization has created learning tools that showcase the wide variety of jobs available in the industry and is actively building curriculum frameworks to help schools incorporate event-related career pathways into educational programs.

Building Bridges Between Talent and Opportunity

The conversation highlights EE-WDF's "Bridges" approach, focused on connecting:

• Talent
• Educators
• Employers
• Government and community leaders

By bringing these groups together, the organization hopes to create sustainable pathways into the industry while helping employers address long-term talent shortages.

The Industry Must Tell Its Story Better

Perhaps the biggest takeaway is that event professionals need to become better advocates for their own industry.

Whether it's introducing students to career opportunities, educating policymakers about economic impact, or helping families understand what event professionals actually do, visibility remains one of the industry's biggest challenges—and opportunities.

The future of the events industry depends on more than technology, innovation, or new venues—it depends on people.

Laura Palker and Al Mercuro make a compelling case that workforce development is no longer a future concern; it's a present-day priority. By increasing awareness, strengthening educational pathways, and building stronger connections between talent and opportunity, the industry can ensure that the next generation of event professionals is ready to carry it forward.

For event marketers, exhibitors, agencies, suppliers, and industry leaders, this episode is a reminder that investing in people is ultimately investing in the future of events itself.

🎧 Listen to the full episode of Event Marketer's Toolbox and learn how you can help build the next generation of event professionals.

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Transcript

Chris Dunn: [00:00:00] Hey, everybody. Hello, and welcome. I'm Chris Dunham with Blue Hive Exhibits, and this is the Event Marketer's Toolbox. Thank you so much for joining us. Um, I got some friends with us today. We got a full, it's almost the Brady Bunch layout, but we're, uh- We've got four, four folks here, um, all friends from our, our live events industry, and really excited to have this conversation.

Chris Dunn: So, uh, a lot of you will recognize my friend here, Brendan Hamlin. He's been a co-host. He started as a guest and, uh, and then he became a co-host, so he just keeps ingratiating himself more and more into the Toolbox world. So Brendan, how are you doing? And, uh, let everybody know a little bit about yourself.

Brendon Hamlin: Yeah. Tha- uh, hi Chris. I'm, I'm doing great. I've been, uh, off the radar a little bit, uh, so it's, it's been a little while since I've been on the, the podcast, so I'm happy to be back, um, and excited for today's conversation. Yeah, so I'm, uh, Brendan Hamlin. I run Hamlin Creative. We're based out of North Carolina.

Brendon Hamlin: We're a, a video and photo production company that primarily [00:01:00] focuses on events, so that can be conferences or trade shows or, um, you know, brand activations. Uh, creating content in that space I think is a, a unique, uh, world and a unique environment. It's different than, you know, shooting a commercial or something like that where it's kind of all planned out.

Brendon Hamlin: It's a little more less predictable. And so just like, uh, the events industry can be unpredictable, so can creating content in that space. So we love it. We've been doing it for about 15 years, and, uh, we, we travel all over the country, uh, working with some great brands and agencies and organizations. So, um, but today we're talking all about the, the events industry, kind of that whole spectrum, and maybe p- uh, you know, putting a little mirror up to, to ourselves, uh, with our guests today, uh, Al Mercuro and Laura Pauker.

Brendon Hamlin: So welcome to both of you, and maybe you can just give us a quick little intro, uh, of your background and, and what you're, what you're doing these days. [00:02:00] 

Laura Palker: So 35 years 

Brendon Hamlin: Yeah. 

Laura Palker: Okay Uh, this is, um, I'm 35 years in the, um, trade show and exhibit industry. Uh, I started in custom exhibits and then moved to portable modular.

Laura Palker: Very excited to, uh, announce we won the portable modular award for, uh, best island under 800 square feet, uh, at Exhibitor Live this year. Was, was an ex- a very, very, um, exciting opportunity, and we were grateful, uh, for the recognition for both ourselves a- and our client. Um, and during the pandemic, uh, the world changed, and I looked at my background.

Laura Palker: I looked at what I had done before being involved in the, uh, exhibit industry. Uh, I found my way in through doing a reorganization for a company that lost the AT&T account when the divestiture took place. Mm-hmm. And, um, so I was brought in to reorganize the company, [00:03:00] and, um, and I did that. I did that, uh, physically with offices.

Laura Palker: I did it through human resource with, uh, bring- buying new companies and bringing them in and did it through organizing, uh, operations and file cabinets and, uh, digital resources and, um, and then found myself, uh, in the industry for life. I drank the Kool-Aid. It was something that I couldn't, uh, couldn't leave behind, and, uh, so worked with that company for, uh, several years and then went out on my own, um, and handled, uh, the three divisions of MetLife, Dale Carnegie, uh, and some of, uh, Sotheby's, some of the, the best auction house in the city, um, and then merged back into working for a company, uh, for several years and, and again grew, did a reorganization and, uh, [00:04:00] then 25 years ago started Trade Show Solution Center.

Laura Palker: But the pandemic, um, you know, we lost 90% of our business like many others. Mm-hmm. Um, and as I mentioned, uh, heard that, that somebody committed suicide, and it was more than what was reported, and looked at the work that I had done in hospice care and lobbying and advocacy in, uh, the Goldman Sachs program and said, "I need to do something," and so, uh, reached out to our founding, uh, members and started, uh, as the National Trade Show Alliance.

Laura Palker: And hopefully we'll be able to talk a little bit more on how we ended up as a events education and workforce development federation. 

Chris Dunn: Awesome. And thank you for doing that, that work. I mean, it's really easy to get consumed with our day, our day jobs, right? And just kind of be all about like, "Hey, gotta deliver for my clients, I gotta do this."

Chris Dunn: But if we [00:05:00] turn our backs on the greater needs of, of the overall industry, you know, we saw firsthand what happens when that industry goes away, and it's not a good thing. Yeah. How about you, Al? Can you give us a little background on where you came from? 

Al Mercuro: Sure, sure. Um, well, I, I started in the live event industry, uh, 53 years ago.

Al Mercuro: Um- ... same, same amount of years that the Knicks had to wait for a championship. 

Chris Dunn: There you go. You're 

Al Mercuro: forever tied to the Knicks. Um, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm dating myself really well here. Uh, I started as a stagehand, uh, doing concerts in college as a student. Yeah. And, and I was hooked immediately. I- there was something about being behind the scenes- Mm

Al Mercuro: being behind, you know, backstage. You know, it was hard work. It was unloading trucks, putting sound and lighting systems up. And, um, but I wasn't a really good musician, so being on stage wasn't an option for me. But being, being backstage was actually- There you go ... kind of a, kind of an interesting point.

Al Mercuro: Know your strengths. And, uh, being the first ones in, last ones to leave, you know, is [00:06:00] all about what the whole live even- industry is today. So I got into concert touring after college. I, I got into trade shows probably in the late '80s. Um, I've been with Genesis Exhibits, uh, here, uh, for 33 years now. Uh, and I'm the strategic marketing advisor there.

Al Mercuro: And, uh, during the pandemic, as we all were impacted by, I, I just- Mm ... realized I couldn't sit back and do nothing. A- and there was something that I just, I just said, "I h- have to stay busy." So I started taking some certification classes, lots of Zoom meetings with industry people. Yeah. And all of a sudden there was organizations forming, like the National Trade Show Alliance, like the Live Event Coalition, and they needed help.

Al Mercuro: And I figured, well, let me volunteer my time, uh, help with marketing wherever I could. And, uh, that led to me getting involved with a lot of other organizations. And even as we got back to business, my company actually allowed me to continue to do this work 'cause they felt it was [00:07:00] important, and I became like the face of our company out there.

Al Mercuro: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, um, I'm still continuing to do this today, which has been a very rewarding experience. 

Chris Dunn: That's awesome. That's awesome. Um, a little background on, uh, on Al. You mentioned, um, that, you know, during COVID you kind of dove in and just started having meetings with all sorts of people. So our first time when we talked was not nearly that long ago, um, but it was your stories about y- your musical background that what just drew me in and, um, I hopped on, I hopped on the, the call and we just talked about, you know, the fact that you had, you had a very young boss, Bruce Springsteen, right?

Chris Dunn: In his early days, you booked him to come play your college. Um, and then we kind of pivoted and you've got, um, background with, uh, Roger McGuinn of The Birds and Tom Petty, and, like, the conversations were just so fun. Um, but at the end of the day, you know, he, uh, music and live events are, have so many similarities and, and it's interesting how we all fall into this industry in [00:08:00] some fashion or form.

Chris Dunn: As Laura mentioned, um, you know, drank the Kool-Aid. Mm. I'm, kind of just hit my 30-year anniversary myself, 21 years at Blue Hive Exhibits. Um, and it's, uh, i- it's, yeah, it's really kind of cool to see how we have all amalgamated into this space. One of the things we'll talk about is, is we gotta bang the drum on that and shine a light on this workforce development because there has been some major gaps.

Chris Dunn: Uh, and, you know, people finding their way in Wednesday, Tuesday is all well and good, but we are, uh, you know, um, we're millions of people strong in the industry and we, we're gonna need a lot of folks as o- older folks like us, like me and like us, uh, all kind of age out at some point Um, 

Al Mercuro: so before 

Chris Dunn: we- And, and, 

Al Mercuro: and I was just gonna mention- Yeah, go ahead

Al Mercuro: sorry. Sorry, Chris. 

Chris Dunn: Yep. 

Al Mercuro: Uh, the, the similarities that you were bringing up, it was, I noticed right away. The, the roadies- Yeah. Mm-hmm ... that did the sound and lighting work for concerts were very much like the installers, carpenters- Mm-hmm ... electricians that do the work for [00:09:00] installing exhibits. 

Laura Palker: Yeah. 

Al Mercuro: Mm-hmm. The same type of folks, they're behind the scenes.

Al Mercuro: They, they're, like you said, the first ones in, the last ones out. No one sees them. Mm-hmm. No one knows who they are. They don't get the recognition all the time. They don't get the spotlight on them. And, um, the, the... there was just something about that industry that I think a lot of people don't realize how much work does go on.

Al Mercuro: Right. And, and the traveling involved and all that. It's very similar between, like I said, music and- 

Chris Dunn: Right ... 

Al Mercuro: and a- any kind of trade show or, or conference work that's out there. 

Chris Dunn: I mean, when the, when the, when the concert starts or when the trade show begins, it's a similar feeling, right? It's like all of this work that's gone into it, and you get the juice from that, like that rush of that nervousness before, right before the show starts.

Chris Dunn: And whether it's a concert- Mm-hmm ... or, or a trade show, it's, it's a s- it's a very similar vibe, for sure. 

Al Mercuro: Yeah. I mean, it's- Um- ... it, it's the one type of business where I think there's a date, a time when that event has to happen- Yep ... and there's no like, "Oh, you know, we'll do this tomorrow." 

Chris Dunn: Other than [00:10:00] COVID, there's no moving that date.

Al Mercuro: Yeah, yeah. 

Chris Dunn: We did see that happen for a little while. Yeah. And that was bad. That was bad. So, um, hey, this is a live show today, so please drop into the comments. Um, let us know if you have any questions. Let us know where you're listening or watching from. Love to hear from you, and we'll work some of those questions right into the, uh, the show.

Chris Dunn: There's a woman by the name of Sarah Hamlin. She's a popcorn professional, uh, and also, um- Mm-hmm ... wife of, uh, Brendan. She's, she's in the chat. So Sarah, hopefully we're gonna get some friends who are gonna be joining you, and you guys can chop it up in the comments here. All right. So here's what we're gonna do to get started.

Chris Dunn: Um, I have got a couple of questions here. I wanna do a little bit of a, a deeper dive into Laura's organization. So you started the National Trade Show Alliance, NTSA, and now you've kind of evolved. It's called the Events Education and Workforce Development Federation. That's a mouthful right there. EEWDF.

Chris Dunn: Yeah. Um, can you kind of walk us back through that? I know you kind of gave us a, a bit of a, a... you've painted the picture already, um, so you [00:11:00] don't have to do the whole thing again. But, um, why did we start? What were some of the key, you know, things that you had seen? I, I, I, I think you've got some data on, like how many people were lost, um, to the industry, not to, you know, lost their life, but chose to leave the industry, not come back.

Chris Dunn: Uh, what kind of, what kind of numbers are, are we up against? Uh, that kind of stuff. How did, how did that all kind of form, Laura? 

Laura Palker: So, uh, as I had mentioned, I had only been in the B2B side, and, um, while I knew that there were other components, it wasn't until I started reading the, uh, work, uh, that was done by the Live Events Coalition that I started to see how massive that we are.

Laura Palker: We were looking at, uh, at data that was showing us that we lost 3 million people working in our industry. And then we were [00:12:00] looking at the, the, the trickle-down effect. Las Vegas lost somewhere in the neighborhood of 12,000 teachers, and when they did the research, it was because they were spouses or partners of the people in the event industry that had to leave Vegas to go and get work.

Laura Palker: So it w- you know, we always, we always talk about the economic impact that we have on communities, but, you know, it expanded the, it expanded the, the, the, the, you know, the vision of really how ingrained we are in communities and how our livelihood affects, uh, communities even, um, beyond what, what we've been talking about.

Laura Palker: And it wasn't even covered. You know, when we first started our board of directors, we, we looked at the 1993 documentary that was done by PCMA, uh, [00:13:00] hosted by Charles Osgood, and it talked about the invisible industry, and it was those people behind the scenes, those people that make the environments, those people that enable the experiences, uh, to happen, and how leadership went forward to, uh, to Capitol Hill to talk about, you know, how we needed to have a place in the economic structures, and then, you know, how we got really successful.

Laura Palker: And sometimes people hear me say how we ended up getting fat, dumb, and happy and went along our merry way and forgot to finish the- 

Chris Dunn: Right. And just to kind of shine a light on that, um, I think statistics are saying wh- where, where do we project, uh, the impact of, of trade shows and live events, uh, from a, a yearly, uh, a, a yearly economic dollar impact to just the US we're well in excess of a trillion dollars, correct?[00:14:00] 

Laura Palker: So in, uh... So at the time, uh, that Go Live and, uh, our, our leading organizations started putting together data- Mm ... uh, and what we put on the back of the Invisible Industry tour trailer- Mm ... was there, we were responsible just in the B2B vertical for 394 billion in direct spending and 190- Okay ... billion in tax revenue on a, on a federal, state, and local level Um, were, and, and events depend upon our workforce.

Laura Palker: So we, we really had to almost take a look at how do we approach this dilemma that was very much like a Rubik's cube. Because for every action, there was a reaction. For every, for every moment there, uh, there was another effect. [00:15:00] Um, looking at, uh, virtual events, looking at, uh, people saying that, that this was never gonna come to fruition, um, and people saying that they were Zoomed out.

Laura Palker: Well, you know what? Take a look at the credits listing at the end of a movie or when you're looking at, uh, at a program and see all of the talent and the skill that goes in the production end of- Mm ... video, of movies, of, you know, performances. Well, that's there for a reason. So when you're looking at a Zoom meeting, none of that exists, so you're having, you know, eye fatigue.

Laura Palker: You're having... Because they're, they're not, it's almost like your brother working, uh, to be a graphic designer using Canva. That's the relate- relationship- ... that we started to see. Where were all the subject matter experts? Where were all the masters? Uh, where [00:16:00] was all of the skill? Um, and- Mm ... that's, that's the gap we needed to fill.

Chris Dunn: Gotcha. So Al, you're, you kind of, um, became involved with several organizations, much, uh, s- like Laura's and other ones out there. Um, a- and you told me something kind of interesting, and this is a little bit of a pivot in the conversation, but you actually found that even though you were, you were putting more and more time and effort into things that, that you, you know, were volunteering for, that actually your, your company and your sales kept going up because you established kind of this face of the industry and your voice was out there.

Chris Dunn: People associated your organization with a, a, a company doing good things. Um, and, and you actually... You, you saw the numbers climb. So just kind of a, a thought from a business owner standpoint is if you're ever thinking that, like, you don't want your people to get involved with industry efforts and to volunteer their [00:17:00] time and so forth, that actually, that's kind of counterintuitive.

Chris Dunn: The more you give, kind of the more you- And end up getting 

Al Mercuro: Yeah, it comes back. It comes back to help all, all the way around. I mean, I didn't mind the volunteering during the pandemic and continuing it afterwards- Mm ... um, because I just felt like giving back to the, to the industry. A- at my age, I figured, you know, it's about time I started giving back, I guess.

Al Mercuro: Yeah. But, uh, the company looked at it as, as like exactly as you said, as, as becoming a way of actually drawing more attention to our company, and actually asked me to, to create a new position for myself. I sort of reinvented myself, so to speak. And, um, so that, that's been a nice change 'cause I was an a- account executive for m- many decades and, you know- Yeah

Al Mercuro: it gets a little, it gets a little old after a while. But, uh, this kind of refreshed me, and it kind of gave me a, like a new, new lease on life. And, um- Yeah ... and just continuing to do it, um, you know, to help the organizations as volunteer, but now to [00:18:00] get paid by my company to do it is kind of a nice thing, so.

Chris Dunn: That is a cool thing. Absolutely. Yeah. Best of both worlds. 

Al Mercuro: Best of both worlds. 

Chris Dunn: Absolutely. All right, cool. Um, so speaking of invisible industry, Brendan, why don't you take us into our next line here? 

Brendon Hamlin: Yeah, I think, I mean, I think that, that term invisible industry is, is so, um, important to, to call out because I feel like that's, you know, there's so much happening in the events industry that you've already laid out and that, you know, that people don't, people don't know.

Brendon Hamlin: You know, nobody knows how the scaffolding got put up. D- and maybe they don't care because the lights and the show are what they came to see. But it's important to really figure out how to, how to, you know, put more emphasis and, and, and, you know, put those people, hold those people up. But why do you think, you know, people aren't aware of what's happening behind the scenes?

Brendon Hamlin: Why ha- h- you know, how is the industry not, um, you know, shared, uh, shared enough, you [00:19:00] know, to, to, to compel or get people drawn into the, into that industry? Where are the, where are the, the gaps there that, that you're seeing? 

Laura Palker: So, uh, if I could jump in, uh, we wrote an article, uh, for- in Protocol Magazine. Uh, Erin Grabe, the executive director of ESTA, Entertainment Services and Technology Association, who has been a great supporter from the very beginning, um, she talked about how our, uh, our industry was very much, um, defined by the Japanese culture of that our job was to be in black and be invisible s- Mm-hmm

Laura Palker: and so that the light would shine on the performers. And but we, I think we took it a little too far. Um, you know, how often did we talk to our family and friends and tell them what we did and get... You got this [00:20:00] dazed and amazed look. "Oh, that's nice." Um, and so what we've done, uh, as we've created a learning tool for our educators, and we, we took every single job in the industry, and we created a riddle deck so that we can engage them in a game, and the riddle would go something like this: "I'm a pilot.

Laura Palker: Uh, excuse me. I am, I fly people, but I'm not a pilot. Who am I?" 

Brendon Hamlin: Hmm. 

Laura Palker: And if you think of that in terms of the event industry- 

Brendon Hamlin: Mm-hmm ... 

Laura Palker: it's a rigger. And so on the back when they flip the card, it gives the job description of the rigger, but then it gives a real-life experience where you would've seen their work.

Laura Palker: And so we did Cirque du Soleil and Phantom of the Opera and Wicked and all of these types of environments where you would've seen a rigger flying people around. And when [00:21:00] we introduced this last year to the educators, they were so excited, and it wasn't, it wasn't the deer in the headlights. It wasn't the dazed and amazed.

Laura Palker: It was the aha moment, and that's what we wanted to accomplish. 

Chris Dunn: That's really cool. You know, if I could, if I could just- If I could join in... Oh, I'm 

Al Mercuro: sorry. 

Chris Dunn: Go ahead. If, if I could just interject, um, real-life example of seeing people from out the side the industry see a, see a little bit, get a glimpse and get super excited is, um, we've just hired a, a handful of people, and we, for the last several weeks, we were interviewing folks, and they were coming into Blue Hive for the first time not knowing anything about us other than we have a funny name.

Chris Dunn: Um, and they got a tour of the shop. They met the, the creative people who have this great space. Um, they saw what we were building, and literally, like, every time I would meet someone, their, their eyes were wide and their sm- smiles on their face. And like, "I came here thinking that this might be interesting, [00:22:00] and I am super excited about what I'm seeing."

Chris Dunn: And it was really, it was a nice reminder, right? 'Cause we're all in our offices working away or spending time online, and then to get that real world really kind of reinforcement that, that what we do is really fricking cool. Um, and it's a, it's a, it's a blessing and, and sometimes a curse, yes. Um, but how, how great is it to be able to share a little slice of this really neat industry and open it up to people who have never even thought about, like, where does this come from?

Chris Dunn: W- how did this exhibit get here? How did, how did these things get all set up? Um, and to be able to kinda o- pull back the curtain, shine the light on that, and it was really nice to kinda just see some younger people get super excited about the industry. So Al, sorry I cut you off. Why don't you- 

Al Mercuro: No, that's okay.

Al Mercuro: Uh, to get back to what Br- uh, Brandon was a- asking, uh, I think it also falls into education. Um, a c- I've spoke to a couple of college professors that taught event planning, and, and [00:23:00] often I was surprised to hear that trade shows were never even discussed in these class- classrooms. There was just a lack of exposure, I guess, might be the best word.

Al Mercuro: Mm-hmm. Uh, and I sat in on a guest, as a guest speaker at one session down at, for a Florida university, and I had so many questions afterwards from the students asking me about the trade show industry. They just hadn't been exposed to it before. Yeah. And, and, uh, Chris, like you said, if you, if, if you get a chance to, to explore a trade show floor before it opens, you know, during the install period, I think a lot of people would be super impressed the amount of work that goes on, you know, before the event opens up.

Al Mercuro: And, uh, how we get high school students, I'm not sure about that. Um, we, we, we... I did like the Invisible Industry tour trailer that we put out there. That was one of the things I really loved that Laura got together. Mm-hmm. Uh, we ne- we do need a little more funding for that to get that back on the road. Yes.

Al Mercuro: But, uh, that was going out to college [00:24:00] campuses. That was going out to appeal to high school students, even, even military vets that are looking for a career choice. There are, there are just so many people out there that just don't know about us, and that's why we do what we do. 

Laura Palker: Yes. And that thing that was so exciting about that council member, Green, uh, who I didn't know at the time, but he was actually president of the DMO, which is the Democratic Municipalities Organization, and they represent over 40,000 mayors and elected representatives across the country.

Laura Palker: He invited us to come and park the trailer on the north apron of City Hall in Philadelphia, and he, and he was hosting their annual meeting and brought over 200 of their, uh, board members through the trailer to build awareness, and then in- Mm-hmm ... introduced all of the workforce development, um, uh, [00:25:00] representatives in City Hall to our industry, uh, as we were doing the work about, uh, the modernized career cluster framework.

Laura Palker: So it had a huge impact and was, it was very, very successful, and even for the people that worked in our industry, when they saw it pull in, it gave them a sense of pride and acknowledgement that we were really, really happy about. Um, so that, that now we are looking to revive it and turn it into a mobile learning lab to- Mm

Laura Palker: uh, visit high schools across, across the country. 

Chris Dunn: That's great. That's 

Brendon Hamlin: great And Laura, you were also talking about some curriculum that, that you guys are developing and, and have, have, uh, worked into some of the school systems up in your area. Is that right? 

Laura Palker: So across the country, um, you know, I got really excited when we got the change in the modernized career cluster framework, 'cause instead of [00:26:00] saying hospitality and leisure and recreation, now it says hospitality and events, and there's actually a full sub-section for conferences, trade shows, exhibitions, meetings, venue management, and events.

Laura Palker: Um, so I sat down in the chair, and all of a sudden I went, "Oh, if we're invisible, where are they gonna get the curriculum?" So we actually have 22 subject matter experts that are A roster of, of excellence and, and knowledge. Um, there you can find who's sitting on that committee on our website. And they came together to begin to create the curriculum, 'cause we already have the knowledge.

Laura Palker: You know, I say we're, we're an industry that was, you know, self-developed, self-defined, self-educated, self-governed. Um, and so we [00:27:00] already have what we need in terms of the knowledge, but now we have to, we have to make it compliant with the Department of Education in each state. So that committee now is, um, looking at how do we take this knowledge and this education and create foundational information and curriculums to start at the high school level, and then create career pathways that go into four directions.

Laura Palker: So they would be to prepare them and give them the necessary information that they need for, uh, a union pathway, for somebody who is going to be, um, looking at, uh, post-secondary schooling, because some of our jobs do require more advanced education. And then looking at how do we then feed, uh, those, um, people who have the skill and the interest to, uh, have a career in the [00:28:00] industry and feed them into our industry association's certification programs.

Laura Palker: And then lastly those that want maybe just at this moment in time just want a job and just wanna feel their way through, uh, as an introductory to the industry and get them into pre-apprenticeship programs in the Department of Labor registered apprenticeship program. And that, um, gives them the on-the-job training.

Laura Palker: And it's super important that it's the Department of Labor registered apprenticeship program here- Mm-hmm ... because then we're, we're collecting data. Um, Marsha Flanagan from IAEE worked with me early on, uh, because they had done, done the work for the, uh, show organizers, and it took years. 

Chris Dunn: Mm. 

Laura Palker: So we've looked at, through the pandemic and through the workforce focus and emphasis on the trades, how do we shortcut that process and get the fastest [00:29:00] path, um, to results and outcomes?

Laura Palker: And that's, uh, through the Department of Registrat- um, Department of Labor registered apprenticeship program, through the career and technical education, because that has the link with industry advisory boards, and then mentorship and job shadowing 

Al Mercuro: We've al- we've also brought in a lot of strategic partners to help us along the way here.

Al Mercuro: Um, I, I've always kind of wondered why certain organizations didn't work more together if they're trying to achieve the same goal. Mm. And, uh, one of the other groups I, I joined was the Live Event Coalition, which was an advocacy group in Washington to help us during the pandemic when we were all out of work, try to get some funding, but they've kind of re-evaluated themselves now that we're out of that.

Al Mercuro: But I, I saw Nancy Shafer, who reminded me a lot of, of Laura, and I got- Mm ... I introduced them at the, [00:30:00] uh, I think we were in Washington, DC with the- Yes ... the, um, with the mo- with the Invisible Tour, and, uh, they're like sisters. I mean, they had the same- Yes ... passion, the same goals. Mm-hmm. And, uh, we needed advocacy within our, our, our organization, so they've now become a strategic partner with us in that respect.

Al Mercuro: I think we also have the Event Safety Alliance, which I'm a member of as well. Uh, Jim Digby joined us, and he's helping us, you know, educate folks on the safety end. So as we bring more strategic partners in, uh, we're, we're gaining more education, we're gaining more experience to help the overall, uh, group of people that need that help.

Laura Palker: Yeah. Very important even in, in the B2B, uh, ESSA is a strategic partner. They administer the ETCP, uh, certification, which is starting to be very relevant in, um, exhibit design and production. Um, a- and then, [00:31:00] uh, we also have the International Association of Venue Management, and as strategic partners because everything starts from the floor plan, right?

Laura Palker: And then, um, uh, added onto that lastly, uh, very, very excited to have the International Union for Painters and Allied Trades, uh, at, at the table so that we can-- You know, workforce is the common thread amongst all the industry associations. So it gave us- Mm ... that opportunity to collaborate, and we have three more organizations that, um, we're in talks with that are, are now, uh, setting up for a board review and approval to come and collaborate with us, uh, so that we make sure that we get it right.

Chris Dunn: Yeah. And it's, it's, so, you know, the, we're, we're building these bridges really to connect all these things. Um, on the EDPA side, [00:32:00] uh, Dana, who's one of our other hosts, she's very involved in the future workforce, right? So that obviously is, is everybody's, you know, sp- singing from the same hymnal as it were, uh, just maybe from a different side.

Chris Dunn: Um, and there's, there's so many related. So Al, I, I, I love what you've kinda done and started putting people together and just kind of be- you know, do that connection thing that you have always done, um, to make sure that we've got all of these like-minded, uh, groups that maybe don't have awareness of each other, uh, find those commonalities, kinda join, join together.

Chris Dunn: You know, I think of, um, obviously Blue Hive is, uh, is a very, I think, uh, good illustration of, of, of a, an exhibit house in, in this world. Um, I'm 59 years old. I'm one of the younger ones on the sales team, right? It's like, it's you don't have to be a rocket scientist to look at it and be like, "Okay, this is all well and good right now.

Chris Dunn: What are we doing in 5 years, 10 years, 15 years? Who's backfilling, um, those spaces?" Uh, same thing in the shop, right? The, the, the [00:33:00] average age in our shop, as you were mentioning earlier, um, you know, nationally I think was 53 or so for, for carpenters. Um, you know, we saw that coming as well and, and we kinda started taking things on, on our own as, as every business does, right?

Chris Dunn: They start looking around and like, "Who can we talk to?" We're, we're out there meeting with, um, you know, folks at the local, uh, tech schools, tech, um, you know, and, and, and trying to get internships coming through and so forth. But now that you guys have finally been able to kinda crack the code at the, at the national level, not that it's done or solved, but at least we've started it, right?

Chris Dunn: Um, it makes it easier for all the companies that are like us that are looking at their, at their workforce and going like, "We're great now, but we're, you know, where are we gonna be in five years when so and so and so and so all retire? We need new people. We need new blood, people coming in with new ideas a- and to just fill the, the void left by the people who are retiring."

Laura Palker: We have two projects [00:34:00] that we're working on right now. One is to create, uh, sort of like a build awareness guide. So, uh, and we have, uh, some guys in the shop in Las Vegas and an I&D company with a father and a son who they're incredibly passionate about our industry. And so getting like the guidebooks, and, and this was something that Bob had told me, they, they created projects like Mother's Day, create a planter or build a planter.

Laura Palker: Father's Day, build a birdhouse. But creating, they did it with the Boys & Girls Clubs where they got to go in- Mm ... and, and get them to see what it, what it looks like to work with your hands. So we're creating this little book about in your community, you can- Mm ... visit a local church and do an introduction and then invite them to, uh, do a tour of a shop or a venue or a, or an event.

Laura Palker: [00:35:00] Um, you know, Greg Wolf from, uh, International Association of Venue Management, he keeps on telling me we'll get to go in a, uh, we'll find a way we can get him into a load in for a Taylor Swift concert. So, you know, it's, it's, and, and get that enthusiasm going. And then secondly, um, the, the educators through career and technical education who are gonna be teaching our work, um, they don't know anything about it.

Laura Palker: So we're creating a guidebook for them state by state that these are the venues that are in your area. This is- Mm ... one of the largest events that happens. These are the jobs that are needed to be able to create this event, and this is the economic impact and this is the earning potential for those jobs.

Laura Palker: And this way we can show them that they play a part in the event industry and, and build the awareness of how important it is for them to, to get on board with, with running these curriculums. [00:36:00] 

Chris Dunn: Yeah, that's, that's amazing just to have that, you know, 'cause I, I can picture, you know, these kind of one-off conversations happening all the time, but without the tools to properly explain it, um, to have the backup to, to, whether it's a pamphlet or a website or whatever it might be, you're talking to a young kid and you're trying to express your enthusiasm for like, "This is really cool.

Chris Dunn: You're creative. You might really enjoy it." But to be able to kind of show them the data and, and show them what type of earning potential there is and, and the types of things that they could expand and do, um, those are the tools that are really gonna help move the needle in a, in a, in a, you know, global, you know, for a global effort or certainly nationally anyways.

Laura Palker: Yeah. 

Chris Dunn: Which is very cool. Um, I was, uh, I was out at, uh, the event, uh, uh, Experiential Marketing Summit, so EMS, uh, about a month ago. It was out in Vegas, and I was super excited to run into, I don't know, 15 or 20, uh, mostly young ladies, but they were from Cal Poly, and there's [00:37:00] an experiential marketing program at Cal Poly.

Chris Dunn: Um, and, uh, I was standing in line with about three or four of these young ladies, um, waiting to get a coffee on the show floor, and, uh, just really so excited to talk to them about their program, um, and about, you know, what it was that they were doing. They had obviously the opportunity to get out, get onto a trade show floor, not just any trade show floor, but one that was really particularly built and dialed in towards exactly what they wanted to do, right?

Chris Dunn: We were... The, the exhibitors who are on that show floor are, are talking to agencies and talking to brands who wanna do cool, creative activations and everything. So, uh, it was a, a great illustration for exactly what we're talking about, is like how do we involve this next generation, um, get them excited about it, open up, you know, the curtain which had previously, you know, kind of shrouded everything in somewhat secrecy, not on purpose but by accident, and, uh, and really show them all of the different cool things that are happening behind the, behind the scenes that they can get involved in.

Laura Palker: Right. Mm-hmm. [00:38:00] Yeah. 

Brendon Hamlin: And similarly, uh, Chris, my youngest son is doing an internship, um, with Poppy, this, uh- Okay ... Poppy handcrafted popcorn this summer. And so we are excited that he's doing that. He's sort of on the, the... He's an intern, and they're, they're focusing on sales and customer service and outreach- Mm-hmm

Brendon Hamlin: and all of that kind of stuff. But the CEO took the interns with her down to a trade show in Atlanta a couple weeks ago. 

Chris Dunn: I saw those pictures online. 

Brendon Hamlin: Yeah. And so what was really interesting was here he is, he's 19 years old, he's, he's, you know, just finished his freshman year in college, really had no idea what a trade show was- Mm-hmm

Brendon Hamlin: um, and had spent the week, you know, working in that booth, dealing, you know, c- working with customers, and then seeing, you know, just the, the, the scale of it, um, really kind of opened his eyes to that opportunity, that whole world. And I guess- Mm ... [00:39:00] um, you know, so it's just interesting to see that, you know, that sort of hands-on experience really can turn into, you know, then going maybe into a program and then maybe into a career.

Brendon Hamlin: So I wonder what, you know, outside of the... I know you're building a lot of these coalitions and, and, and consolidating that to kinda, kind of create some foundation, but what are, what are companies doing as well to maybe draw people in and, and get some of that younger, uh, younger talent involved, whether that's on, you know, any part of the spectrum, whether that's, you know, creating the space or, or working the space?

Laura Palker: So we have some, uh, companies that are, are working with us with pre-apprenticeship programs. So they're taking incumbent employees that are existing, 'cause it can be, um, it can be an existing employee or it can be a new employee, and putting them in the programs. We, uh, Jeff Hannah, who is on our board of directors, has a trade show basics program, [00:40:00] and we were able to do, uh...

Laura Palker: We've done two programs, um, in Atlanta, we've done a program in Chicago, and then two in Maryland, um, and are planning to, uh, bring that into, uh, the curriculum into a boot camp. I mean, I was at, uh, with the exception of one, at every, uh, boot camp. And to see these employees, I mean, they were so excited. We had the two-day program, four hours, uh, in the morning each day, and they were walking out saying, "I'm gonna work tonight.

Laura Palker: I'm gonna write down my questions. I'll come in in the morning. Can I spend some time with you?" Um, you know, I had no idea about where I could go with this. And so we felt like we not only created a better career pathway, pathway for the employee, but we created a better [00:41:00] outcome for the employer. Right.

Laura Palker: Because the cost of learning is so expensive, and that's why, you know, we can get grants, we can get funding that can help defer the cost of this training, huge training initiative that our industry has to have, so that we can defray some of these costs but build again, keep that culture of community that we have in our industry.

Chris Dunn: Nice. And Laura, just to, just to clarify on that, these are, these are brands that would be like an exhibitor at a trade show, or are they, or are they vendor side brands like a large exhibit house? 

Laura Palker: Uh, so both. Both. Uh, we actually had a transportation company champion in Chicago. Mm-hmm. Um, the, we worked, uh, with, um, a general contractor, uh, 21st Century Expo Group, uh, in, out of Maryland.

Laura Palker: So it, it really is, it, it, we have to be [00:42:00] diversified. We have to be across the six verticals, and that's why it's so important to have the federation. You know, there was talk in the industry of, oh, we ha- we've got too many associations, we've got... No, we don't. We need every single part and parcel of our industry to focus on the specialization because we are a highly specialized industry, so we need those industries, and we need to be able to feed every single one of them with vetted talent, vetted talent.

Laura Palker: Um, that's why it's so important to start that foundational work at high school and community college so that we can cut down the c- the cost of, uh, cut down the learning curve, which cuts down the cost, be able to build a foundation of knowledge so that, you know, after a company spends a year training somebody, they leave because they say, "Oh, I didn't know I had to work so many weekends."

Laura Palker: I mean, that's a huge expense. So our [00:43:00] function in the wheel is to create vetted solid candidates for development in those four directions that we talked about, and get funding for that so we can defray the cost. We just had, uh, one of our, uh, authorized learning centers, um, they're gonna be, uh, graduating two apprentices this year with a 4,000-hour curriculum of coordinator, and that gives- Wow

Laura Palker: them broad understanding of the industry. Um, and they got, for the two candidates, $6,000 tax credit. Mm-hmm. So it is, you know, that's just two. Look at, at how that grows exponentially, um, across the industry. We're starting our second cohort. Um, anybody who's in the New York area that might be interested, we have until June 30th, uh, [00:44:00] to, to get the paperwork done for, for this year, 2026.

Laura Palker: And the tax credits on the first year is 2,000 per employee, and then they go into the second year and get 3,000 per employee. And if it's somebody with a learning disability, um, cognitive, um, or, uh, physical, the, that goes up to $5,000 per employee on the tax credit in any organization that's in New York State.

Laura Palker: Um-

Laura Palker: So- Wow, that's impressive ... we have Florida and Atlanta, uh, coming up the pipeline. And then in New Jersey we have, uh, opportunity... We're, we're starting the project management, um, apprenticeship program, and the pre-apprenticeship is $6,000 per, per candidate. So- Wow ... the money is out there, and if we work together, we can access it and we can distribute it to our partners to run their programs as [00:45:00] well 

Brendon Hamlin: That's, that's great because when you put money behind stuff, you know, that's when you, you can really start to get that, that traction, um- 

Chris Dunn: Right.

Chris Dunn: Right, right. 

Brendon Hamlin: What, what is the, um, talk- can you talk about, is it Tallo and, and how that partnership works? 

Laura Palker: So we were super excited. I wanna back up one minute because we also had a, a part- we have a partnership with YouScience, and YouScience creates the certification programs and does the analytics, uh, and have tremendous algorithms on, uh, they do brain games for the schools where they match skills and interests to job opportunities.

Laura Palker: And then, uh, they also create the caps We're fully mature on that right yet, but something in the future, uh, vision that we have is, um, the founder [00:46:00] Had, uh, done a presentation at Exhibitor Alive two years ago, and he said that they had collected the data on a million students, and that the talent for our industry is there.

Laura Palker: All we have to do is market to it Well, Amy Barnes is who I work with. She moved to Tallo, and Tallo opened up the bridge for us. You know, we've spent decades talking to ourselves. Mm-hmm. What I recognized is that we needed to build the bridges to the outside world to allow us to expand. And so the, we have an exclusive, um, relationship with them for the events industry.

Laura Palker: Again, everything in mind to bring us together to expand the footprint. So each of our strategic partners, all of their members can [00:47:00] have access. They can, uh, each... And we've designed everything so that we protect the silos. So every strategic partner has their own profile they can communicate with, the access to the students.

Laura Palker: It is a d- it is a database of two, over now, it's over two million learners, and the target, uh, age is 13 to 30, but it is open to everyone. And it gives us the opportunity to speak to people who are interested in careers. So, um, we actually are, uh, doing our partner training on the platform, looking at how do we deliver our education, how do we deliver our job opportunities.

Laura Palker: We're look- training our partners on how they can post their jobs so that they're, they can be visible [00:48:00] to the platform. And, and th- the easiest way to explain it, it's almost like a LinkedIn platform where you can create groups and opportunities and events and education. You can, you can communicate with the talent individually.

Laura Palker: And what is so exciting for us as an industry is that it's a platform that's designed to engage with students. So they understand all of the legalities, all of the criteria. Um, when we, we do videos, so we have subject matter experts talk about each of the jobs, they don't see the students. It's a little bit of a strange experience, but it's, it's really quite engaging.

Laura Palker: So we ask them for response. We ask them for questions. And the way that you, you know if you're reaching them is by how much they engage. So and then the students actually, they create the video, they edit [00:49:00] the video, and then they post it to Real Careers, Real Journeys. Um, so people who would like to be involved in that can go on our website and they can opt in.

Laura Palker: Um, we have community connections. Um, v- very, very small Um, a membership fee for administration. And then, um, if you belong to a partner organization, there's no cost at all. So we don't wanna end up so that we're double-dipping and we're trying to, you know, all pull money from the same source. That was a big concern when we first started.

Laura Palker: So we respect our partner organizations that w- all, everything we do is open to their, to their organization's members 

Brendon Hamlin: So much great stuff you guys are doing Yeah, 

Chris Dunn: that's, that's amazing. Good stuff, good stuff. We are- 

Laura Palker: The last thing that you want us to talk about is the bridge to the educators. So you let me know when we can talk about that.

Chris Dunn: That's the next [00:50:00] show. 

Laura Palker: Okay. 

Chris Dunn: Fantastic. Um, this has been really awesome. Uh, we're at about 50, 50 minutes right now. Let's start our, our kinda wrap up process. Um, Laura, I definitely wanna make sure that people understand how to get ahold of you and your organization. Um, and so, uh, Juana, can you help us with, um, with putting this up?

Chris Dunn: But Laura, what's the best way for, for folks to kinda reach out and touch base, um, you know, with your, your EEWDF group? 

Laura Palker: So we have a website, ee-wdf.org. Um, it's growing and it's evolving every single week, so use it as a resource. Uh, we have a bookstore if you wanna enhance your, your knowledge of the industry.

Laura Palker: Um, we'll be adding on additional tools. Uh, we have several programs. If you'd like to support our work, um, visit the marketplace. Um, we have affiliate programs set up, but we've chosen things that are good for our [00:51:00] industry, like Sugar Wish. If you're always on the road for that special someone's birthday, you can just shoot an email and a beautifully gifted, uh, um, uh, package will arrive to your loved one or your family member or friend.

Laura Palker: Um, and then LinkedIn, obviously, Laura Palker. Please, uh, look me up, connect with me, message me, um, and we will be happy to, uh, to talk with you. Al, uh, Al has our LinkedIn group, so look for our LinkedIn group. He, he, uh, handles that with our social committee, and, um, super information, and it keeps you informed, and you can always sign up for a subscription to What's Up Wednesday, where we give you a, a little bit of a synopsis on what's new and improved, um, at the federation.

Chris Dunn: Nice. 

Al Mercuro: Yeah, we g- we got 60 new followers last week alone, so- 

Chris Dunn: Oh, wow, okay ... on like, just on 

Al Mercuro: our LinkedIn group. 

Chris Dunn: There you go. You must be doing something right, [00:52:00] Al. 

Al Mercuro: Yeah. 

Chris Dunn: Fantastic. All right. We like to kind of do our little recap here on the, on the toolbox. Um, you shared a, a ton of, uh, great information, but I'm gonna circle back to you, and I'll start with Al.

Chris Dunn: Al, if there's one or two nuggets of, uh, the, of gold here that you could leave with our, our listeners or our viewers, is there anything that you would, uh, wanna circle back, put a pin on, or, or mention something that maybe we haven't gotten to yet? 

Al Mercuro: Uh, yeah, on a personal matter, uh, I mean, I, I wish I would've started doing what I'm doing now much earlier in life.

Chris Dunn: Mm-hmm. 

Al Mercuro: I, I think it's a, again, a very rewarding process to give back to the industry, and we need more people to do that. Um, so, you know, I, I wish I wouldn't have waited to this age to do it. I wish I would've done it sooner, uh, just to, to help more people out there in the industry. I always find it odd when somebody gets to retirement age or they retire, they, they literally walk out the door and, uh, all that is lost.

Al Mercuro: They'll, they'll ... [00:53:00] Some people- Right ... and that's fine, 'cause some people wanna go into a new, new chapter. They, they don't wanna do what they've been doing. Mm-hmm. But I think, uh, some people, you know, it would be nice if they kinda gave back more to the industry. 

Chris Dunn: Yeah. That's, that's great. You know, one of our

Chris Dunn: We've, we kind of bounce all over the place and, and our guests come from all factions within kind of the live events world. Um, somebody who I consider a, a mentor and re- ultimately got me into the business is a guy named, uh, Robert Larhoven. And, uh, back in the, in the early '90s, I met Robert. He opened up, um, a location in Denver.

Chris Dunn: I happened to be living in Boulder. I was a sign guy. Um, I was working with another guy in the industry, and it's ... You know, I remember being a, a young guy looking at the exhibit world going like, "Wow, I think I finally found my people." And I, and I've watched Robert's journey, right? He led Larhoven Design, uh, brought B-Matrix into

Chris Dunn: I mean, talk about, you know, fairly impactful product on the marketplace. He brought that into the US. Um, and now he's a brand ambassador [00:54:00] for a couple of different companies, and he's just- Mm ... I'm watching kind of ... I'm 10 years maybe younger than he is, or maybe six or eight, and just kind of watching as he's making these moves, and I think we can all kind of identify with that, right?

Chris Dunn: We look to people like Al, uh, who had a, had a really successful great career but is finding all this joy in, in ways to give back. So I love, um, I love that you're kinda shining a light on that. And, and certainly you don't have to wait until you're, you know, of, close to retirement age to kinda give back, right?

Chris Dunn: That's the whole point is jump in and, and start doing it earlier and, uh, you get way more from it than you, than you put in, right? The gifts, the gifts, uh, the gifts that keep on giving, for sure. Laura, how about you? What can we, what can we add or, or kinda shine a light on? 

Laura Palker: Every person in our industry is a special person.

Laura Palker: I mean, it is, it is one of the things that inspired me to do this work over the past five years, [00:55:00] and it is, um Just it, it, it is uncomparable to any other industry, and I've inspected airplane engines and worked on a tobacco field, so I've got a good- ... a good bandwidth of, of job experience. But, you know- One person can make a difference Mm.

Laura Palker: We are so grateful and so lucky, um, to welcome our new vice chair, Nicole Klein, from Exhibit Expressions. And I have to tell you, you know, she would always say, you know, "I, I don't know if I'm a- contributing much. I don't know." Well, Nicole got a call from, or, or was making a cold call f- and they contacted You Science, and that opened the door to create this valuable connection and this, this, this consummate [00:56:00] bridge, uh, with Tallo.

Laura Palker: So don't, don't think that you don't have enough time. Don't think that you don't... We're all super, super busy, but that's why we've created the, the, the model that everybody does a little. 

Chris Dunn: Mm. 

Laura Palker: And we can crack this thing, bring it over the finish line. And I saw Bart said, "Let's rock it." 

Chris Dunn: Bart Kent, absolutely.

Chris Dunn: Let's rock it. And, uh, and getting a little love here, uh, Aaron Deal, "Well said, Al. It's how we really establish a leg- a legacy." So thank, thank you to both of you guys. I mean, you guys have really kind of given back to the industry over, well over and above. Um, you know, and, but it's, it's people like you who help, uh, shine a light on, on what we're doing here as a whole and, uh, and- and rebuilding this industry and, and opening up opportunities to, to people, whether they be young or brand new to our industry, maybe coming over from another industry.

Chris Dunn: Um, we're gonna, we're gonna have, uh, one of our [00:57:00] super, uh, super listeners, super watchers, uh, Zadia, um, join us and talk about what it's like been getting into our industry as, uh, you know, she's, she's not, um, you know, right out of college per se. And I mean that in all the best ways, Zadia, if you're listening to this.

Chris Dunn: Um, but you know, it's, it's great to see new people coming, uh, into our industry who have had experiences, uh, in other industries and see how freaking cool this can be, um, and the energy that they bring and the experience and, and, and we're shifting, right? We're, we're changing the way we do things because, uh, we did things in the past isn't, isn't cutting them, you know, cutting it anymore.

Chris Dunn: So we have to adapt with the times. But, um, thank you so much both for joining us. Brendan, always a pleasure to have you on board. Thank you. Uh, thank you everybody out there who has, uh, listened and watched. You can catch this show again, same link. Uh, this will be here forever, or at least for a long time.

Chris Dunn: Uh, we're on YouTube, we're on Spotify, we're on Apple Music, we're all, on all of the f- platforms. Share this with your friends in the industry. Um, and if [00:58:00] anybody who might be looking for an opportunity, uh, on a, you know, creative side or whatever it is, like share this episode and let them know, um, that there's a lot of ways to get involved with our industry and learn about what's going on here.

Chris Dunn: So, all right, we'll wrap it up. Thanks everybody, and happy eventing. Cheers to, to all. Take care. Thank you. Bye bye. 

Laura Palker: Thank you.