EMT #65 with Dax Callner and Chris Kappes - Building the Future of Event Measurement

Event marketers have believed in the power of face-to-face experiences for decades. But as budgets grow and leadership asks tougher questions about marketing spend, belief alone is no longer enough.

In Episode 65 of Event Marketer’s Toolbox, hosts Chris Dunn and Dana Esposito sit down with Dax Callner, Founder and President of the Event Marketing Measurement Association (EMMA), and Christopher Kappes, EMMA Board Member and longtime event industry leader, to tackle a challenge the industry has struggled with for decades: how do we consistently and credibly prove the business value of events?

The conversation goes beyond simply calculating ROI. Dax and Christopher discuss why event measurement needs shared standards, how marketers can measure the potential they create rather than taking responsibility for sales that happen months or years later, what the industry can learn from unsuccessful events, and how EMMA is working to make measurement knowledge accessible to everyone. 

1. Believing in Events Is No Longer Enough

Events are an expensive marketing channel, and the people controlling budgets are increasingly asking marketers to demonstrate why that investment is worthwhile.

Dax explains that measurement serves two purposes. First, it provides credible evidence that helps defend event investment. Second, it gives marketers the information they need to continuously improve their programs. Knowing what worked—and what didn't—allows teams to make changes and show stakeholders how those changes affected performance. 

2. The Industry Needs a Common Measurement Language

One of the reasons event measurement remains difficult is that organizations, agencies, and suppliers often use their own methodologies. EMMA wants to establish a shared foundation.

What began around 2017 as a group of experienced practitioners working through the measurement problem has evolved into a nonprofit organization focused on three areas: standards, advocacy, and education.

EMMA's goal isn't to prevent agencies or brands from developing their own approaches. It's to establish fundamentals that the entire industry can understand and use, making credible measurement knowledge more accessible instead of keeping it behind agency walls. 

3. Measure the Potential Your Event Creates

One of the most practical distinctions in the episode is between event-generated potential and eventual closed revenue.

Dax shares an example from his work measuring automotive events. By examining buying signals, lead qualification, and other indicators, the team could project millions of dollars in potential revenue generated by an event.

That distinction matters because the event team doesn't necessarily control what happens six months or a year later. Sales teams, dealerships, and other parts of the organization are responsible for converting those opportunities.

For event marketers, the job is to understand and demonstrate the quality and value of the potential being handed back to the business. 

4. Bad Results Are Still Valuable Data

Measurement isn't only useful when an event performs well.

The conversation includes an example where an event didn't deliver the expected results. Instead of hiding the problem, the team used the data to identify what went wrong and explain how they would fix it. That transparency ultimately strengthened the client relationship and led to additional work.

As Dana points out during the discussion, failures provide information that can make future events better. Measurement gives teams the evidence to understand those failures instead of relying on assumptions. 

5. Better Measurement Requires Better Industry Transparency

Measurement also raises a larger question about the relationship between exhibitors and show organizers.

Christopher discusses the difficulty exhibitors sometimes face getting clear information about who is attending an event. Without accurate audience information, brands have a harder time evaluating whether they're reaching the right people and whether an event deserves continued investment.

The group argues that better measurement can create healthier conversations between organizers and exhibitors. If an event consistently fails to deliver the audience exhibitors need, continuing to invest without addressing the problem isn't sustainable. 

6. EMMA Is Building Education, Benchmarks, and Standards for What's Next

A major part of EMMA's next chapter is education.

The organization is developing a comprehensive event measurement certification program with 13 modules, designed to give event professionals hands-on measurement training. EMMA is also working toward a benchmark database that would aggregate anonymized industry data, allowing marketers to better understand what "good" performance actually looks like. 

Another planned research initiative will examine the long-tail impact of events by reconnecting with attendees six and twelve months later to understand what they actually did after an experience: whether perceptions changed, purchases happened, loyalty increased, or other behaviors followed. 

The larger goal is to give the industry a credible source of truth rather than forcing every marketer to solve measurement independently.

For years, event professionals have known intuitively that face-to-face experiences create value. But intuition becomes much harder to defend when budgets are scrutinized and every marketing channel is expected to demonstrate performance.

The opportunity isn't simply to find a better ROI formula. It's to build a more consistent approach to defining objectives, measuring behaviors and perceptions, understanding attendee value, learning from failures, and communicating event impact in language the rest of the business understands.

EMMA's work toward shared standards, accessible education, certification, benchmarks, and long-term research could help give event professionals a stronger foundation for doing exactly that. And as Dax emphasizes near the end of the episode, measurement doesn't necessarily require a massive budget—there are economical and even free ways to start collecting better evidence. 

🎧 Listen to the full episode of Event Marketer's Toolbox to hear Dax Callner, Christopher Kappes, Chris Dunn, and Dana Esposito explore what better event measurement could mean for marketers, exhibitors, agencies, and the industry as a whole.

If measurement is still the part of your event strategy that gets pushed to "later," this conversation is a good place to start changing that.

👉🏼 Join us for more insightful discussions like this by tuning into 'Event Marketer's Toolbox,' where industry leaders share the tools, tactics, and trends driving success in the event world.

This Show is sponsored by Blue Hive 

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Transcript

Chris Dunn: Hey. Well, hello everyone, and welcome to the Event Marketer's Toolbox. I am Chris Dunn. I'm with Blue Hive Exhibits. We're a custom exhibit company. We are located in the Boston area, and also in Vegas. I've got one of my great coworkers with me who also joins me on the podcast from time to time. Her name's Dana Esposito, EVP of Strategy.

Chris Dunn: I'll kick it over to her. She's over there. So hey, Dana. Actually, you were the other way. 

Dana Esposito: Hello, Christopher Dunn. 

Chris Dunn: How are you? And introduce yourself if you would. 

Dana Esposito: Hi, Christopher Dunn. Um, yeah, so I'm Dana Esposito. I've been at Blue Hive for about four years, but in the industry about 30. Uh, exhibit designer, creative leader, lots of other weird things in my name.

Dana Esposito: Not, none of them terribly important except I also help keep Chris Dunn between sticks. Um, and we are excited because- That's a tough job ... we're here today with Dax and Chris, another Chris. So, um, actually they're talking about the Event Marketing Measurement Association, which is something that's newer to me and I'm excited to hear all about it.

Dana Esposito: So [00:01:00] Dax, can you introduce yourself please? 

Dax Callner: Yes. Hello. Dax Collier. You have me beat. I've been in the industry about 27 years, um, so congratulations on that. And, uh, mostly on in agencies and I, I am, am, I am an American who lives in London, and I have my own consultancy here called DAC Strategy, and I'm also the president and founder of EMMA, which is we're gonna talk about today, and I also make music in my spare time, so I'm, I, you know, I'm busy.

Dax Callner: Chris? 

Chris Dunn: A real renaissance man. 

Dax Callner: Chris Kappes. 

Christopher Kappes: Hello everybody, uh, Chris Kappes, and they, they always want an old guy on, on the, on the show, so here it is. Uh, I'm, I'm not embarrassed to say this is my 44th year in the business, so I started in 1982. Nice. You and- A long time. I've seen a lot of change, and I'm particularly excited about this topic because frankly, not a lot's changed in the measurement side when you look at, look at things over the last 44 years.

Christopher Kappes: Um, I ran sales and [00:02:00] marketing for both Sparks and George P. Johnson. Um, interesting times. Um, and uh, have had some, uh, been involved in consulting, uh, a lot of brands and, and agencies over the past, uh, few years, and I'm actually working on, uh, a couple novels right now related to the industry, so excited to, uh, bring those out here in the, probably in the next few months.

Dana Esposito: I have a question. So I'm a big reader. Novels like fiction, nonfiction, only because I have to ask this so many times we've said over the years like, "Oh my God, someone should make a movie about this industry." So I have to ask you what type of books are you writing? 

Christopher Kappes: Well, y- you know, I don't wanna be too much of a whistleblower, um, but there are some, some challenges in our industry that are better told through fiction than nonfiction- 

Dax Callner: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Christopher Kappes: as opposed to a white paper or a, a... So it's actually a trilogy. One takes place in Vegas, one takes place in Geneva, and one takes place in Hong Kong. Hmm. So there's [00:03:00] three different books that all follow- Oh ... a protagonist and a, an antagonist through the journey of trade shows and some un- unexpected events.

Christopher Kappes: And I, I'll leave it at that. I don't wanna give away too much of the plot, but right now- Yeah ... looking for agents and, and so forth. So. 

Dana Esposito: That's very 

Dax Callner: interesting. I want to say something. Go ahead, Cindy. 

Dana Esposito: No, go ahead. Go ahead, Dax. What were you 

Dax Callner: gonna say? No, I've, I've learned something I had no idea Chris is ... So I've learned something new about you today.

Dax Callner: That's awesome. Well, he's been working 

Chris Dunn: together for all this time, and you had no idea- 

Dax Callner: I know ... he, like, was 

Chris Dunn: an author. I, I- 

Dana Esposito: So- You know? ... I keep picturing something more along the lines of, like, Office Space and, um, the movie- The Office? ... the TV show The Office and also- 

Chris Dunn: Okay. Yeah ... 

Dana Esposito: and, and throw a little Grey's Anatomy in there.

Dana Esposito: Those seem very bananas, but- Perfect ... all right. So let's talk about what we're supposed to be talking about today. So, um, we're excited to hear more about this, um, the Event Marketing Measurement Association. So Dax, can you get us started and explain to us even more, like, why event [00:04:00] matters more now than ever before?

Dax Callner: So, well, measurement, uh, it's critical now. I mean, it always has been important, as Chris said. Mm. But it's critical, I think, more than ever now because marketing continues to get more sophisticated, and people who have the purse strings when it comes to budgets are asking- Mm ... very tough questions. You know, why are we spending all this money on what is inarguably an expensive channel?

Dax Callner: If you look at, you know, a comparison of an email campaign, there's no way to compare a price for an event versus an email campaign that can reach hundreds of thousands of people at pennies. And so we- Mm ... need answers. We need to answer those questions. If we ... You know, I think all four of us believe in events, and so we, we

Dax Callner: That belief is not enough anymore. We actually need credible evidence to support why the investment in the channel is worthwhile, and we also need to improve it. And I think events should, can and should be [00:05:00] improved, and th- the data that you get through measurement helps to inspire those improvements.

Dax Callner: You understand what's working, what's not working, and, and that's a crucial factor to driving continuous improvement so that you can say to your budget stakeholders again, "Hey, we changed this, this, and this, and we got this much of a better result, uh, because of those changes." So those are, for me, the two big reasons that I always talk about when it comes to the critical nature of measurement for events.

Dana Esposito: Mm-hmm. Right. So, so you keep calling it EMMA, so I'm gonna do that as well, um, just 'cause it's a mouthful. Um, so- Yeah ... is that ... Like, tell us how, how do you, Dax, and Chris, how do you guys know each other? And also, how did EMMA come to fruition? Like, how did it come to be? 

Dax Callner: Chris, you start with how do we know each other, and then I'll tell the Emma story.

Christopher Kappes: Well, yeah, I mean, I think our pedigree, I mean, we both, having come out of Sparks and George P. Johnson and, and the agency world, uh, had, had, had known of each other and, and [00:06:00] obviously had respect. And Dax, um, was kind of at a place with Emma where he was looking for sponsors and frankly needed a bit of a tin cup guy that can go out and raise money.

Christopher Kappes: So I raised my tin cup and said, "Hey, it's not full now. I'd like to fill it, and like to help with the industry." If, and if you wanna call it a payback to the industry, you know, I love this industry, you know, and I wanna pay back, and, and I want it to sustain going forward in a, in a world that, uh, sustainability's so important, um, y- you know, the, the concept is, is so important.

Christopher Kappes: So, so that's where I know Dax. Um, and so I reached out and said, "Hey, I'm your tin cup guy. Let me go out and raise some money," uh, which I've been able to do. Uh, but, uh, there's never enough of that, so if you guys wanna throw some money in the tin cup, we'll take it. Uh. 

Dax Callner: Always 

Christopher Kappes: selling. 

Chris Dunn: So- There'll be a link

Chris Dunn: at ABC. 

Christopher Kappes: Well, there'll be a link at the end of this. Yeah, yeah, link, link below. Uh, and as- Go fundem- 

Chris Dunn: go fund Emma ... 

Christopher Kappes: Dax, Dax said, you know, we're a nonprofit, so it's, it's not like it's- 

Dax Callner: [00:07:00] Yeah ... 

Christopher Kappes: doing anything other than going into benefiting all of us, so- 

Dax Callner: Yeah ... 

Christopher Kappes: so that's, uh, that's how we got together. 

Dax Callner: Yeah. So, uh, 

Chris Dunn: so thank you- Listen, I have

Chris Dunn: Before we go on, I, I have- Yeah ... a daughter named Emma who also requires funding. Considerable as well, so I can fully relate to this. I can't spare that money, I'm afraid. Sorry, bud. 23, 23 and very, and very much, uh, requiring funding. All right. Apologize for that. Right. 

Dax Callner: Yes, I feel your pain. Um, yes, so thank you.

Dax Callner: And Ch- Chris, Chris actually has helped, h- has almost saved us, if I'm honest with you, because there's a lot that we are hoping to accomplish as an organization, and some of it needs money. You know, I, I don't make any money from Emma. It's a not-for-profit board and volunteers and stuff. Um, but it is a passion, uh, for

Dax Callner: a real passion. So let me, let me tell you the history and how we've arrived at this moment. Um, I started my career at Jack Morton Worldwide in 1999. And I be- quickly moved into a strategy [00:08:00] role and began to work with people at the agency to solve measurement in 1999. We were gonna, we were gonna solve it.

Dax Callner: Um, but what we ended up doing was so complex, there was no way event people would adopt it. You had to be, like, a data scientist to understand the guidance that we had put together, and that was, for me, a huge light bulb moment. I was like, "Okay, I see what's going on here," you know? I had no, I had no exposure before that to measurement at all, but I had this initial exposure, and it was so complex, I was like, "Okay, this has got to be simpler, more actionable, easy for people to understand, and standardized."

Dax Callner: So then I moved on from agencies, and I, I would spend time at, as, uh, Chris said, at Sparks. I was at Momentum for a while. I did traditional advertising and digital at Pu- uh, Media at Publicis for a few years. I spent time at GES, and through all of those [00:09:00] cycles, continued to get crisper and crisper and crisper and clearer on what measurement meant through each of them.

Dax Callner: And y- including Publicis, where I saw how traditional marketers were evaluating advertising, TV spots, and digital, and all this, and social media. And so all of it was kind of going into this funnel, and, uh, when I, when I ended up at GES, I was living in New York, it was around 2017, I said to the GES team, I thought, "You know, we have something that is very credible now from a measurement guidance standpoint.

Dax Callner: What if we took this to the industry? Like, let's, let's not just make this about our clients anymore. Let's take it to the industry." And they, bless them, agreed. And so at that point, in around 2017, I founded what is now called EMMA. We had a different name at the time, but I founded this group, and it's just started off as a loose affiliation of [00:10:00] people like me, who had been practitioners and trying to fig- figure out this problem for many years, coming together and saying, "All right, we're gonna do something for the industry to help our industry grow and thrive," that we really believe that the industry will survive and thrive based on credible measurement and evidence of, of, uh, e- effectiveness and performance.

Dax Callner: And so we then argued for years about what that guidance should be. Uh, all very constructive, but really, like- battles about what we were gonna put out into the world. And we ended up putting together a set of playbooks, which were very prescriptive guidance, that we would then offer to our members. So we became more official over time.

Dax Callner: We started to-- We became an official not-for-profit. We started to open up to members, and it started to grow organically on its own, which was lovely. Um, however, we s- we s- realized in the past [00:11:00] year or so that just being a membership organization wasn't enough. We needed to take a stand. And so when we decided to take a stand, we th- we thought, "All right, we're gonna- we're gonna be three things when it comes to this industry."

Dax Callner: One, AMMA is going to be a standards body, so we're going to, uh, uh, establish and communicate the standards that all events and all event marketers should adopt when it comes to measurement. And we, uh, we have published some of that. We're about to publish in the coming months our actual standards documents to say, "Follow this."

Dax Callner: We also decided that we needed to be an advocacy organization, so doing things like this podcast. You know, talking to people, explaining the point of view, welking- welcoming them to our content and, um, our guidance. And so there's this advocacy part of what we're doing, getting out there and speaking and building awareness, et cetera.

Dax Callner: And then the third is to actually train [00:12:00] people. And so we are in the midst of l- uh, developing and getting ready for launch the industry's most comprehensive measurement guidance for events and experiences and activations, whatever you wanna call them, that has ever existed on the face of Earth. Uh, it's gonna be 13 hours of really hands-on training so that people can take the course and get certified in event measurement.

Dax Callner: That is the goal. So we're launching that in September of 2026. Depends on when you're watching this, but we're launching it in December of 2026, and we're also keeping the price at a very reasonable, accessible amount because we really believe that we wanna democratize access to decades of experience from the folks that have been working on with AMMA for years.

Dax Callner: That was a very long answer, but hopefully that gives you the background. 

Chris Dunn: That's a great- That's a good answer. Yeah ... that's a great background. Yeah. That's a good answer. [00:13:00] Absolutely. Yeah. Um, it's- Yeah. It's just disappointing Sorry, Chris. Uh, I was just gonna say, disappointing that, that Chris, you were experiencing these challenges in '82, right?

Chris Dunn: And here we are in, you know, we're 40 many, many years later, 40 something years later, and we're still trying to solve them. But I, I, I think Chris, uh, sorry, I think Dax's story tells in an illustration how challenging it's been, right? And, and we've all been in the industry for a long time, and, and we see the challenges, people fighting for budget, and then also fighting to figure out how, how do we substantiate this big spend.

Chris Dunn: Um, you know, there's a lot of soft, uh, type of trigger and, and, and flags and so forth that are in there that it's like, if we do this enough, we're gonna, you know, fill the pipe and we're gonna see the benefits over time. But the people writing the checks are impatient these days, and they're bigger checks.

Chris Dunn: Um, so yeah, props, props to you, uh, Dax, for keeping it going and, and Chris, on your end to, you know, recognize that, that there was a [00:14:00] great need there and to kinda jump in and do some things that are for the betterment of our, of this industry that we all love 

Christopher Kappes: Yeah. One, one thing just to add to Dax's overview, um, you know, in the spirit of making it as comprehensive as possible, we have reached out to the CTSM community, and they're participating in reviewing, uh, the first four modules.

Christopher Kappes: Um, I presume there'll be others they'll be reviewing. Um, so we are looking at, you know, the, the ecosystem and, and tapping experts that can look, look, that can look at our, our work and, and, and challenge it, right? And there's no issue with if, if we think there's a better way, uh, or a different approach that we, we, we'd certainly consider it.

Christopher Kappes: One other last comment as a real follow-up on Dax, um, is with respect to, um, becoming a sponsor, one of the cool things about the sponsorship, and we're hearing this from the people that are sponsors, is that we offer 10 hours of [00:15:00] free consultation, measurement consultation. So if you become a sponsor, you have the opportunity to select from a group of five sponsors who can come in and work with your team, uh, on a project- Consultants

Christopher Kappes: on a, on a... Yeah. Uh, pardon me? 

Dax Callner: Five consultants. 

Christopher Kappes: Five cons- yeah, yep, sorry about that. Yeah. Yeah, five consultants who can k- kinda come into your, the agency, your facility, and, and, uh, do, do training, um, handle, tackle, you know, call it measurement challenges you might have. So that's a, that's a pretty, I think, innovative, I'll call it, association approach to fundraising beyond all the other things that, that are part of the, uh, the sponsor membership package.

Chris Dunn: Right. Yeah. I know for, you know, for a group like Blue Hive, um, you know, we're, we're out there working with, uh, with our clients all the time, and again, I, I mentioned it earlier, but, you know, it, it's not, it's no secret that, uh, the, the, the cost to do events, to do trade shows and so forth is still [00:16:00] going up, right?

Chris Dunn: Yeah. Um, and those aren't... It, it's difficult to get your arms around that. So being able to say, "Yes, I understand that we're gonna drop $300,000 on this event. However, here's, here's what we know from, from, uh, previous industry information, or here's maybe what we know from the last event that we did, is that we're gonna come out of this," and I'll just make up some numbers, but w- what if I could tell you that, that we'd have 5 million in pipeline, and that we're, we're gonna close th- you know, 35% of that, right?

Chris Dunn: And be able to back that up instead of just, you know, throwing stuff against the wall like we have for so long and, and crossing our fingers and hoping 

Christopher Kappes: Yep. 

Dax Callner: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I can just tell you a quick story because I, I've just, uh, over the past six months I've been working with one of the largest automotive brands in the world, and helping them evaluate their exhibit at auto shows across the US, and they, they very smartly, you know, want to [00:17:00] understand how well they're performing delivering a quality experience to the audience, but also what is the impact?

Dax Callner: What is the result? Mm-hmm. And part of the equation for impact that we formulated was looking at the buying signals of consumers, and looking at leads and qualification, and actually doing a revenue projection off of that. So they knew what they spent on it, and then we would say, "Well, your actual potential revenue coming off of it is this many millions," sometimes millions of dollars.

Dax Callner: Mm-hmm. And that's a very compelling answer to a stakeholder who's wondering, "Why are we investing in this channel?" I mean, the interesting thing finally on this about auto, the automotive space, and this is a consumer audience, but, but it's true of many B2B as well, which is what happens after the show is sort of out of the events team's control.

Chris Dunn: Mm-hmm. 

Dax Callner: And so it's, it's... So what, what, what we say at EMMA is that we're, we, we suggest that you measure the potential. Your deli- your job as an event person or an exhibitor [00:18:00] is to deliver warmth, warm leads, warm potential back to the organization, and then it's up to the organization to convert that potential into actual sales.

Dax Callner: That's generally the case, because often- Right ... those sales happen months, sometimes years later, and it's- Mm-hmm ... difficult to credibly attribute what happens a year later to just the event. So what I think our job is, is to deliver potential. And in the case of automotive, it's even more stark because most automotive brands don't own the dealerships where people buy vehicles.

Dax Callner: And so they really- Right ... don't own anything after that point. So, but they, but, but the local dealerships are very interested in those warm, qualified opportunities, believe me. And so they're saying to their local dealers, "Look at all this potential we're giving you." And that's also very compelling to those stakeholders.

Chris Dunn: Yeah. 100, 100%. Um, I'm just, yeah, the, so many thoughts are running through my head, uh, on [00:19:00] that. And again, the, the, the need has been there for so long. So, so Dax, I mean, you, you're, this, this, um, is not the culmination, right? 'Cause it's gonna keep on going, but this is, has been your life's work even though it's, uh, been a, a non-paid venture.

Chris Dunn: Uh, but y- all of the learning, right? Every play, every stop that you made, you become an amalgamation of all of these different experiences, client side, agency side, um, talk being, being in the agency gr- group and, and t- and having direct conversations with big brands like that that are dropping all sorts of money but need to validate, um, has all kind of led you and pointed you in this direction.

Dax Callner: Yeah. 

Chris Dunn: Which is, which is great. Yeah. So, um, you know, shout out to you guys for, for doing, you know, doing the Lord's work here, uh, because this is gonna really, really help all of our clients. It's gonna help the whole industry, right? Yeah. When, when Dana Enter- Yeah ... does an amazing job and I try to, you know, uh, creating a design and I try to go sell that [00:20:00] and we're you know, maybe a bigger number than they were hoping for, but if we have the ability to kind of show them how they're gonna be able to measure this, uh, experience and how they're gonna be able to track that, you know, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna arm every single person in the industry, you know, whether you're a client side, uh, brand marketer or an agency or, or an exhibit house like us, um, that helps us all, you know, do our job better.

Dana Esposito: Mm-hmm. 

Dax Callner: Exactly. And I think- Yeah. Nu- numbers of 

Dana Esposito: leads is not enough, you know? 

Dax Callner: It's not enough. Well, 

Chris Dunn: well- 

Dax Callner: And, and for too long I've seen, I've noticed agencies kind of holding onto this knowledge, you know? And I understand why. Like, it's a competitive space and you, you do want to differentiate from others, and I have no problem with company suppliers having their own, their own take on it.

Dax Callner: But the fundamentals, that's what the EMMA is all about, is the, the- Mm-hmm ... fundamentals can be shared and, and I think everyone should adopt the, the foundational stuff that we're pr- [00:21:00] promoting. And, and that's the goal of EMMA is to universalize that and democratize access to that information because it will help everybody.

Dana Esposito: Agreed. Agreed. I mean, I still hold onto presentations, um, and notes that I've taken during presentations or speaker sessions. I mean, Christopher, um, Kappas, I was at one of your sessions you presented at, oh my God, it was in LA at the Event Design Summit years ago. Um, I still remember things that people say, so I think everyone, you know, Chris, you say it a lot, you know, all rising tides raises all ships.

Dana Esposito: So I think by educating and sharing our knowledge, it just makes everybody better, and then that's better for our clients, and so everyone wins. 

Christopher Kappes: Yeah. Right. W- well, just a side note, um, and thank- thanks for going to that session. I, I don't even remember it, but if you did, that's good. That's, that's what I 

Dana Esposito: like.

Dana Esposito: I remember it. I remember. 

Christopher Kappes: Uh, you know, think about it, you know, we came out of COVID, [00:22:00] and obviously, you know, traumatic, but also perhaps the best thing that ever happened to the industry because pre-COVID everyone was complaining about going to shows, and now they're, they're, you know, they're back, and they miss- Celebrating 

Chris Dunn: going to shows.

Christopher Kappes: Yeah. They, they miss the human, human factor. But, but the reality is where does the, where does the budget go from where it's at now? It's at an all-time high as a percent of marketing budget. We're talking events here as a percentage. So it's not, it, I, I doubt it's gonna go up anymore, so therefore... And yet expenses are going up.

Christopher Kappes: So that, that squeeze occurs, and we're, we're experiencing it right now. So unless we get really, really smart about measurement, and by the way, measurement doesn't mean that you prove the value. Y- you could also disprove the value, which may be another way, y- you know. So, uh, I, I think, you know, and, and this is what, you know, Dax and I have talked about as it relates to, to what some of the work he's doing is some cases, you know, if you're a mature industry and you've, you've kind of tapped out the, call it the return [00:23:00] on experience, then maybe you should be looking at other channels, you know, and in- investing in them.

Christopher Kappes: I hate to say that as someone that has been a champion of our channel, but the reality is we want what, what the marketer needs, not what we wanna sell. So, so, uh, you know, I go back to budgets are budgets. They're not gonna go up. I just don't see it. Um, where do they go from here? I mean, you know, it's just a real challenge.

Christopher Kappes: So it, we better get smarter with the dollars we're spending, and that's really what this is all about. 

Dax Callner: Let me, let me tell a quick story, uh, based on what Chris just said actually, um, because I was at, I was working at an agency and we were producing an event for a client and doing the measurements. So the agency was doing all the production, helping with the creative, helping with the content, like full scope end to end, and then I was looking after the measurement for the event.

Dax Callner: The event did not go well And the measurement showed it. So we had a conversation at the agency, which is, "What do we do here? How do we report [00:24:00] this back to the client?" Uh, if I'm honest with you, the account team wanted to sugarcoat the results and make it look as good as possible. I insisted that we keep it honest and we tell the truth.

Dax Callner: And we went back to that, and it, it was a very nervous meeting to go through the reporting and share the data of an event that didn't go well that we helped to produce. Um, however, at the end of the meeting, miraculously the client thanked us and really appreciated our candor, our sense of partnership, and she said, you know, "I, we wanna keep working with you.

Dax Callner: You know where the problems are. You've said how you're gonna fix them." And she ended up giving us 10 more projects- Mm-hmm ... off of that, off of that bad event experience. So even if it doesn't go well, it can still- Yeah. Be a useful- Yep ... tool to cement- Absolutely ... that sense of partnership. Yep. 

Dana Esposito: You need to know all the good news and the bad news.

Dana Esposito: I- 

Dax Callner: Yeah ... 

Dana Esposito: uh, I mean, people have said [00:25:00] this, and I can speak from personal experience, you learn way more from failures than you do from successes. Yeah. So I, I keep all my failures in my back pocket. Like, so if something didn't go well, all that means is your other events are gonna be better because now you have data, you have information, you have, you have intel.

Dax Callner: Yep. Good stuff. 

Christopher Kappes: Well, one other benefit of, of what we're talking about today is y- you know, is the tri- triple, uh, triple up, trickle up, uh, of measurement to the show organizer because we know that we often- Have difficulty getting the truth from the audience and w- who's coming to the show, right? So if we're able to, through measurement, be able to provide that to show, the show organizer, now we have a little bit more, uh, skin in the game.

Christopher Kappes: We can push them a little bit more, right? 'Cause right now there's not always the transparency there, and I know they're fighting their own battle as it relates to, you know, so much of their income comes from trade shows. About 65% of their, their, [00:26:00] their revenue comes from hosting an event or a trade show.

Christopher Kappes: So they wanna continue to, to monetize that and, but on the flip side, w- if, if you can't get the audience, the right audience there, then you're moneti- you're taking money that's not yours, to be candid. 

Dax Callner: No. 

Christopher Kappes: You know? 

Chris Dunn: Yeah. So 

Christopher Kappes: it's just one of 

Chris Dunn: the- It's unsustainable over time, right? 'Cause people aren't gonna continue to throw money at stuff that's not working.

Dax Callner: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we 

Christopher Kappes: hear it all 

Dax Callner: the time. It's, it's very interesting that you bring that up, 'cause just a couple of, uh, additional points on that. I, uh, there was one show, a big show in the US, that asked me to come talk to their exhibitors about measurement, and I was like, "Kudos to you, 'cause you're actually helping your exhibitors be successful and impactful and understand the tools and resources that they have."

Dax Callner: And in my experience, that's very unusual for an organizer to really invest time and money in helping this drive the success of their exhibitors. On the other hand, going back to the automotive for a moment, the auto show organizers [00:27:00] as of today do not tell their exhibitors who's at the event. They don't tell them how many people.

Dax Callner: They don't tell them the demographics. And so I know this 'cause I directly was working on this l- in, in the, over the past six months. We had to find other ways to get that data, and there are other ways to get it. Um, a- b- because part of my evaluation, this is my personal business, not Emma, but part of my evaluation for this brand was is your investment at the show, uh, does it make sense?

Dax Callner: Are, are you investing in the right shows at the right amount? And that has to be based on who's at the show. And if the, if the organizers are hiding that data, th- first of all, does that tell you something? You know- ... why are they hiding it? 

Chris Dunn: Mm-hmm. 

Dax Callner: And then secondly, you know, once you d- get the data from other sources you have, you have a, a sing- a point of truth f- with which to make, um, a proper, uh, strategic investment.

Dax Callner: And that's what it is for me is getting to truth or as close to truth as I [00:28:00] can get to. I want to know the truth. And however I can get it, I will get it. 

Christopher Kappes: Yeah. Just to that point, Dax, you know, we might talk a little bit about some of the, uh, I'll call it projects once we get the educational piece launched that we're certainly looking for funding, and I'm not, you know, raising my tin cup here, but just to talk about the, the other two studies w- that really help us get to truth, right?

Christopher Kappes: And you've used that. Yeah. That, that's one of the things I love working with Dax is he al- he always uses that, and I, I trust him. I tr- and he uses the word trust and truth a lot, and that's really what we're all after is, is trust and truth, right? So you might talk about those two other studies that, um, you know, are on our kind of our list.

Christopher Kappes: I can. 

Dax Callner: I can if you, if you guys want me to. I can talk about what Emma's working on, and that's a range of, of projects. 

Chris Dunn: Absolutely. Let's do that. Let's just a, a reminder to folks who are watching and or listening to this, this is, uh, episode number 65. We [00:29:00] are recording this ahead of time, and it will be, uh, rolled out.

Chris Dunn: Uh, ideally, uh, the four of us, or at least a collection of the four of us, will be in the comments. So as you're kind of watching this, feel free to, uh, let us know where you're, uh, where you're coming from, uh, and the questions that you've got. Um, so we're, we'll be engaged with that, and, and hopefully, uh, it makes for some lively, uh, banter in the comments when this hits, uh, next week.

Christopher Kappes: Bring it on. 

Chris Dunn: Bring it on. There we go. Um, awesome. Yeah, Chris, would love... I'm, I'm sorry, Z- Dax, let's... Absolutely. Let's, uh, let's, let's talk. 

Dax Callner: All right. So I mentioned that we're a not-for-profit, and part of the reason that we need funding is because we have big ambitions. Like, we have some major projects that we're hoping to get off the ground.

Dax Callner: The biggest thing we've ever done is the education that we're about to launch, and it has taken a team of people. Um, it's me, uh, it's, uh, Storycraft Lab has come in pro bono to help us build it. [00:30:00] They're like a learning and development supplier. Chris mentioned CTSM candidates donating their time to review the course.

Dax Callner: Like, we're really trying to do this right, and so we're investing the time to do that, and that is going to launch in September. That's the current plan. And, uh, the first four modules will launch in September, and then in the months afterwards, we'll release the rest of the 13. We can only do so much at once.

Dax Callner: We all have day jobs, so we're doing this, we're kind of pulsing it. Um, anyway, so that's, that's the, that is the biggest effort of EMMAs, in EMMAs history. Um, and so we sort of put our other projects and initiatives on the back burner because we had to get this done. But that doesn't mean they're unimportant, so let me tell you what some of them are.

Chris Dunn: Okay. 

Dax Callner: One of them is, um, a, a, a tool that houses data from multiple sources that people can ask questions and query that data to understand what benchmarks exist. So they, they could go in, let's go back to [00:31:00] automotive. They could go in and say, "If I'm doing a 20 by 30 at automotive, how many leads can I expect?"

Dax Callner: And the tool will tell them, "This is how many qualified leads you can expect." That does not exist in our industry today. 

Christopher Kappes: It'd be an, like 

an 

Dax Callner: AI 

Christopher Kappes: agent Someone- Yeah ... 

Dax Callner: someone needs to own and capture anonymized data from multiple sources, make that accessible, and allow people to query it, and as Chris is saying, through an, a conversational AI tool.

Dax Callner: So you could just go in and say, "I need some information about what I can expect from this," or if I'm doing my reporting, "How do I compare- Right ... against everyone else?" 

Christopher Kappes: Yep. 

Dax Callner: Uh, the story I always tell on this, I have two daughters, Chris, like you have a daughter. If my daughters come home from school and they have a B, they got a B on the test, I don't know if the B is any good unless I know what everyone else got If everyone else got an A, that's the benchmark.

Dax Callner: [00:32:00] That B is not looking too good. If everyone else got a C, okay, they did all right. Or if I want to compare it to a baseline, if my daughters are always getting Cs and they get a B, I'm happy no matter what everyone else got. We saw improvement. Mm. And so we need comparative data points. And again, going back to the idea of democratizing access to information and a s- and a source of truth, we wanna be that source of truth about what good looks like when it comes to events measurement.

Dax Callner: And so that's one of our big ambitions, and it's gonna take some work. Don't get me wrong. We do have some people who have said they'll share their data with us, anonymize it, you know, take out anything connected to the specifics that we shouldn't be sharing- Yeah ... but, but aggregate data into a massive data lake that people can use to compare.

Dax Callner: And then the other initiative, um, that is on our immediate radar after we get this first education done is we want to understand what the long [00:33:00] tail impact of an event is on an attendee's perception and behaviors. Mm. So we are gonna go to people who went to an event six months ago, 12 months ago, and we're gonna say to them, "What happened afterwards?

Dax Callner: What did you take away? What did you do as a result?" Because again, I said earlier, we, w- when we're doing our evaluation now, it's about what are the potentials that we're driving. We wanna know what actually happened. And so we're trying to build a large scale panel, B2B and B2C, and, uh, and ask some questions that get at how did this, how did, how did your brand perception shift or continue after the event?

Dax Callner: What behaviors based on the event did you elicit? Did you buy more? Did you, were you a more, uh, loyal customer? Did you stay as an employee? Whatever it is, like... And so that's, that is, uh, one of our other big ambitions, and we wanna publish that out to the industry. So we're excited about both of those things, as you can tell.

Dax Callner: Yeah. 

Chris Dunn: Yeah. Super exciting. [00:34:00] Um, yeah, I'm a visual, I'm a visual person. I think a lot of people in our industry are. Can you kind of explain, like, uh, let's say we're fast-forward, uh, six months or so, it's early 2027, um, and you've got some of the educational modules that are out there, and, and Emma is putting more of these kind of standardized metrics out there.

Chris Dunn: Is it, is your offering gonna be like a platform where I can go and plug in my information and, and get kind of data back to me? Or is it more like, here are the standards that exist and, uh, here's, here's kind of a framework of, of data points to help you understand, and- Yeah ... and then we just kind of are doing that plugin on our own and running our own kind of version of, of some sort of, um, you know, algorithm type of thing?

Dax Callner: The answer is both, actually, and they're, and they are distinct- Okay ... from one another. So we, we provide, we're providing and have already developed guidance that could help people like you [00:35:00] say, you know, you wanna up-skill, you want to integrate measurement into your practice. We have playbooks, we have guidance that we have developed.

Dax Callner: You can, if you're join us as a member, you get access to that right now. It's all there. Okay. All the goods are there. The education is based on that guidance, but it's much more training-oriented. You know, come to a session, watch a few videos, do some exercises, take a quiz. And so it's, it's in, it's a way for us to make our content, um, to make it a, an educational kind of course, rather than reading a PDF, which is what we have now.

Dax Callner: So that is meant to empower strategists and marketers and stuff with the, with the knowledge that they can then apply to what they do day to day. The benchmarking tool, the idea th- is you would go in, Chris, and say, "All right. My project is I'm working on a technology trade show in Vegas. I'm doing an [00:36:00] exhibit.

Dax Callner: This is how big it is. Here's the profile of the audience." And it'll tell you, "Here's what you will expect. Here's what you can expect from number of leads, number of visitors, num- quality of audience." And so that's the idea is with the benchmarking tool, is you can query it and un- and get some of those key data points that will help you in your planning or in your, in your, uh, reporting so that you know how you compare to others.

Dax Callner: And so the... So they're both, they're both going to exist, essentially. 

Chris Dunn: Nice. Great. 

Christopher Kappes: Dad, you might reference- So let's say... Yeah. Go ahead, Chris. You might, you might reference a little bit, um, from a monetization perspective, how we're pricing the educational, um- 

Dax Callner: Oh, sure ... 

Christopher Kappes: certification, you know, which, which we haven't talked about really.

Dax Callner: Yeah. Yeah. We did, we did a price analysis and looked at what was out there, and we're lower than all of them. So what we're suggesting is, uh, what we are charging is [00:37:00] 399 for the full course, dollars, or 149 if you're an EMMA member, because we do want to, more people to join us in this journey, so we're heavily discounting the education for people that wanna join, um, EMMA- Mm-hmm

Dax Callner: as an association. 

Christopher Kappes: And if you're a sponsor, uh, there are some sweeteners there in, in the sponsorship, you know, where you, you know, you have one, one seat that's free, uh, and so on and so forth. So- Yeah. 

Dax Callner: Yeah. 

Chris Dunn: Awesome. No, it's tremendous, uh, tremendous incentives on that end, so, uh, I appreciate that. Um, so just as a, as a general example, I'm thinking, um, you know, uh, January 2027, there's a show, uh, in New York, NRF, right?

Chris Dunn: Um, so in an ideal world, this tool, could I- In a perfect world say, "I'm going to NRF," and then your data lake understands what that means [00:38:00] and what the perspective, um, attendee base looks like, the, the potential numbers that it would pull maybe from, well, last year had, you know, 52,000 visitors, whatever it was.

Chris Dunn: In the, in, in your mind's eye, the way that this is being built, would I be able to put in simplistic information like, "Here's the show I'm gonna attend, here's the size I'm, I'm doing," and it will s- ideally spit back those kind of numbers for me? 

Dax Callner: I ... It's funny you ask that question because that hasn't, what you've just asked has not been part of the plan, but you've just given me a great idea.

Dax Callner: Well, oh good. Um, and so, and yeah, so, so I, I do think it's very interesting. So there, there are tools out there where we can look at historical attendance data for trade shows. 

Chris Dunn: Mm-hmm. 

Dax Callner: And so, and meaning the overall show, not- nothing- Right ... to do with exhibitor traffic and that kind of stuff, or expo floor.

Dax Callner: Right. But literally, like, how many people and who were they that were in the convention center during NRF over the past three years? [00:39:00] That is accessible if you know how to ask, if you know how to find it. 

Chris Dunn: Okay. 

Dax Callner: Whether we can offer that in our tool, I, I, that is, that would be fascinating. It's not something that we have talked about, but it is something that I will be taking away from this conversation to look into, because I think that is very interesting.

Dax Callner: Mm-hmm. We had always thought about it from an exhibitor's standpoint, meaning exhibit performance. What can I expect- Right ... in terms of traffic to my booth, number of leads, um, exposure, you know, uh, reach, you know, impressions, whatever it may be. Yep. But that's fascinating idea that you've just given us, and we're gonna steal that, thank 

Chris Dunn: you.

Chris Dunn: Well, it's certainly where I'm, I'm going with it, right? As an exhibitor, if I'm gonna, I know I'm gonna do a 20 by 30, I get 600 square feet, I can, an, I know what- Yeah ... I'm, my spend is, right? What, what's my expectation from a leads standpoint? Yeah. And then it's my job, right, to, as the, as the event manager, to say, "All right, so the machine predicts that I'm gonna get 225, you know, leads of which, you know, a [00:40:00] th- one third are actionable or hot," or whatever- Yeah

Chris Dunn: that data that comes back. Now I've got a measure- now I got a measurement, right? On, it's like- Yeah ... okay, so our goal is more than that. Let's, let's prove the machine that we can do a better job, 'cause we're gonna pre-market this thing. We're gonna, um, we're gonna get out there and we're gonna, our booth is gonna be more engaging.

Chris Dunn: We're gonna build an a- a activation that, um, that is more memorable. Um- 

Dax Callner: Yeah ... 

Chris Dunn: right? So, but those data points are super interesting because obviously any of us can just go to ChatGPT and ask it those questions, but the data that it's working from is- Suspect, right? It 

Dax Callner: is suspect. It is. 

Chris Dunn: It's gonna give you an answer and tell you how awesome you are, but it's not gonna necessarily be right.

Dax Callner: And it's gonna do it with full confidence as if it really 

Chris Dunn: understands the answer. Chris, that's a fantastic question. You're so smart. 

Christopher Kappes: But, you know, w- I think we've all learned with, with the AI tool that it's always about the prompt, you know? And- Mm-hmm ... and how you're able to get granular, uh, you know, a general prompt isn't gonna get you anything.[00:41:00] 

Christopher Kappes: A more, more, you know, granular prompt- 

Chris Dunn: Mm-hmm ... 

Christopher Kappes: gets you what you want. N- not to suggest that, that you can get a lot of that now, but just overall, that's, that's the challenge we have with AI, right? 

Chris Dunn: Right. 

Christopher Kappes: Is the prompt. 

Chris Dunn: Yeah. You know, um, I'm gonna... This is a little self-serving, but, um, I recently did a trip to, uh, to Paris and, um, out in front of Notre Dame, there is a, a metal disc that's in the ground, and that point is fr- e- everything that's measured distance from Paris is from that point.

Dax Callner: Hmm. Wow. 

Chris Dunn: And the, the correlation that I'm drawing is that you guys are creating the standardization because we can all create our own data and tell our own stories around whatever information we can gather, but if every, if every single person has different data and different origins of what that data is and what it really means, we're gonna come up [00:42:00] with different answers, right?

Chris Dunn: But so, so- Yeah ... the fact that you guys are standardizing this and this is becoming that metal disc in the ground in front of, you know, Notre Dame is like everything emanates from this point. So I think that's, that's great because then, then we're comparing apples to apples and not apples and hammers.

Dax Callner: Yeah. Yeah, let me give you, let me give you another example. Right now in London it's 25 degrees. So wh- why does that sound awkward to US ears? Because it's the middle of summer, and it obviously isn't- Right ... 25 degrees Fahrenheit. Right, 

Chris Dunn: right. 

Dax Callner: But we have different standards of measurement for temperature.

Dax Callner: Mm-hmm. It makes it difficult for you and I to have a conversation even about the weather. 

Christopher Kappes: Yeah. You know, it was interesting w- before I even hooked up with, uh, with DAX, I did a little research on sort of how many standard, standards bodies are there in the United States, and there's close to 30, you know?

Christopher Kappes: And most of them, [00:43:00] I mean, there's nothing obviously in our space, and I thought, "Geez, you know, th- this makes complete sense," and it's crazy we don't have a standards body, you know? Whereas if, if, you know, you got, uh, Underwriter Laboratories, which is a couple miles from where I live, you know, they're a standards body.

Christopher Kappes: If you, if you're bringing something to market, you run it through and they test it, right? Mm-hmm. There's no reason, given the amount of money spent in our category, what is it now, $1 trillion plus in, in overall spend globally- 

Chris Dunn: It's 

Christopher Kappes: up that way, yeah ... that we wouldn't have a standards body, right? So it, it's a big deal.

Chris Dunn: Yeah. Now, so you put all this work in, you create it, you build the standard. How does that, how does something like that get rolled out and, and adopted, right? Because if other people- Yeah ... are out there doing something similar but they don't like your metrics and how you're putting it together, they're gonna be like, "Well, I'm not gonna use EMMA.

Chris Dunn: I'm gonna do my own thing or I'm gonna do something different." 

Dax Callner: Oh, that's definitely gonna happen. I mean- Yeah ... there's no way around it. So, uh, I, I think that we have, [00:44:00] at least we have the credibility of practitioners with decades of experience with some of the biggest brands in the world. So I think we have a strong argument to say we have the, we have the, the resume.

Dax Callner: You know, we've got the credibility of the organization. Mm. It's not just me. You know, there's, there's 100 of us that have been working on this stuff. Right. And so we have, we have that thought, that mass of thought that's gone into it, which is hopefully a reason for people to take it seriously. I, I hope that they do.

Dax Callner: But we also have an awareness problem. We gotta get the word out, and that's why we're here talking on this podcast. That's why we have partnerships with some of the bigger media organizations to help us give a broader platform. I'm hoping at some point, if we can afford it, to do a little ad campaign to promote this and say, "Hey, you should pay attention to this B2B," you know, advertising campaign to attract interest.

Dax Callner: And that, and, and we just need more people to come, more people, more companies to join us in this [00:45:00] journey. The great thing about the sponsors, by the way, is not just that they're handing us a check. They're actually saying, "We believe in it. We're aligned. Like, let's do this. We're, we're behind you. We wanna join you in this journey."

Dax Callner: Right. The more companies, the more people get involved, the more success we will have at rolling it out. Will people debate us and try to prove us wrong? Of course. Of course. There will always be haters. There's nothing I can do about it. 

Chris Dunn: Haters gonna hate.

Chris Dunn: Um, we are at 45 minutes here on the Toolbox, and would love to wrap this up a little less than an hour. So let's start, um, kind of working towards that. So we've talked about a whole lot of things, um, kind of, you know, where this future of measurement is going. Super excited about the idea that, you know, you're rolling out this, um, educational component, and people can literally gonna get a certification for it.

Chris Dunn: I mean, that's gonna be a great thing to do. That's... I, I, I picture, you know, [00:46:00] fu- future, you know, job postings and so forth as like, "Must have EMMA cer- certification," right? We're gonna bring in an event manager. We wanna know that this person understands that, that we're gonna be held responsible for the budget, we're gonna be in charge of the ROI, and we need the tools to be able to, you know, measure that.

Chris Dunn: Mm-hmm. Um, but, uh, as we, as we kind of wrap up, let's talk a little bit about, um, you know, how can people who are listening or watching this learn a little bit more about EMMA, um, and then how can they, you know, get involved? And then also before we, you know, before we sign off en- entirely, we'd love to have you guys kind of just drop a little, you know, one or two little kind of nuggets of knowledge with us that, uh, that our listeners and our viewers can take away.

Dana Esposito: And before you do that, um, because I am also new to understanding what EMMA is, I'm gonna read through what some of the nuggets that I've taken away from this as far as some of the background, just to recap for people who are like me, who are also [00:47:00] just first learning about it. So EMMA is the Event Marketing Measurement Association.

Dana Esposito: It's a US-based nonprofit. It's been in the works for years, and now you've really sort of put it into play. It's a standardization for our industry of measurement specifically. It's an advocacy organization which will have tools and resources, um, for its members. They are... You are an educator organization.

Dana Esposito: You will have measurement training. You're working on 13 modules. Uh, it sounds like maybe they're each about an hour each, is what it sounds like, if I'm understanding. The first four of them, you're hoping to h- already have active and in play by the end of September. 

Dax Callner: Early September. 

Dana Esposito: Early September? Um, 

Dax Callner: yeah.

Dana Esposito: Okay. This is expliciti- explicitly for measuring events. It is an organization of members and sponsorships. Um, and, uh, you're working obviously with CTSM [00:48:00] accredited individuals as well. Um, and if you are a sponsor, you will be a certain amount of hours of free consultation that you also have access to as well.

Dax Callner: Yes. Let me- Yeah ... let me make one, one note just because I know- Sure ... uh, I, I, I assume most of your watchers or viewers are, or listeners are in the exhibit space. And so when we call the, the Event Marketing Measurement Association- 

Chris Dunn: Mm ... 

Dax Callner: under that event umbrella, we have four types of events, trade shows being one of the big four, uh, for obvious reasons.

Dax Callner: So I just wanna make sure people understand- Yep ... like that is a huge focus. Okay. Yep. Uh, B2B conferences, uh, so business conferences, employee events, so internal events, and, um, consumer activations. And so tho- those are, those, those are like our big four f- focal areas. When it c- when we say events, that's what we mean.

Chris Dunn: Mm. Perfect. 

Dax Callner: Yeah. [00:49:00] 

Chris Dunn: No, that's great. And, and even though Blue Hive is primarily, um, trade show related, uh, a lot of our, our viewers and, and, uh, participants and so forth are, uh, more broad from, you know, across the event scape- 

Dax Callner: Yeah ... 

Chris Dunn: as it were. So this is, this is super, um, super dialed in for exactly that. Um, and Dana, thank you for doing that nice recap.

Chris Dunn: This is kinda how things look in our world when I come in with my shoebox worth of shit that I've gathered from my c- my client interview, if, if the designer wasn't able to be there. It's like, "Look at all this stuff that I got." And Dana's like, "Okay, now f- I, I need to systematically be able to go through all Chris' scribbles and his ideas and his little sketches."

Chris Dunn: Um- 

Dana Esposito: He's like a magpie, "Shiny object, look." 

Chris Dunn: Shiny. Squirrel. Squirrel. Um, so anyways, that's a great illustration of how things may or may not work here behind the scenes at Blue Hive. May or may not. Um, all right. [00:50:00] So all this is, is great stuff. How can... So Dax and Chris, how can people f- uh, learn a little bit more about EMMA?

Chris Dunn: Is it through the, through the website?

Dax Callner: Yes. So the website, we have a, an amazing URL, as you see on the screen, eventmeasurement.org. Mm-hmm. There we go. We scored the URL for a not-for-profit association focused on event measurement. So that is how you find- There you go. Got it ... the, how you find EMMA. And of course, you can find me and Chris on LinkedIn is probably the easiest way.

Dax Callner: Drop us a line, and we will respond on LinkedIn. All 

Chris Dunn: right. Perfect. 

Christopher Kappes: And, and you know, we, uh, we obviously are, are most of the major trade shows- Mm ... we exhibit there. Uh, we're supported, you know, Dax mentioned our media partner. We, you know, Event Marketer is, is, is our exclusive media partner in the US, Event Industry News in the UK, and we're adding to that list as well.

Christopher Kappes: So, um, yeah, so we're ... You, you'll see us on the [00:51:00] ground 

Chris Dunn: Awesome. Awesome. That's great. 

Dana Esposito: And Dax- You know- ... if you had to just leave one nugget with our audience, who is a mix of people, of exhibit providers like ourselves and our beloved partners, also trade show and event managers from the client side, e- event meaning anything from exhibit to, um, a national sales meeting, an outdoor festival, whatever it may be, what would be a nugget or two of information that you'd want them to take away, um, from this, knowing that you guys are out there?

Dax Callner: Okay. I've got two, so indulge me. One is the number one barrier is we can't afford it, and I would ask you to challenge that when it comes to measurement. First of all, I might say, can you afford not to? Because without the data, without the evidence, can you defend the investment? Can you drive improvement?

Dax Callner: And then the second thing I would say is it does not have to be expensive, and this is part of what we cover in our knowledge [00:52:00] and training, is there are very, very economical, even sometimes free ways to do this. And so don't let cost be a barrier. Find ways of doing it inexpensively if that is a problem.

Dax Callner: Listen, if you've got great budgets, do the robust measurement. I love it, but it doesn't have to be a barrier. The second one that I was gonna say is the three questions that are so crucial to ask when setting objectives for an event so that you know what you're going to measure, and you also use these to inform how you plan the event itself and to make sure that you're going to deliver on your objectives.

Dax Callner: The first one: What do we want people to do differently as a result of this event? That is your behavioral question. Mm. And you can design the event to elicit those types of behaviors. Whatever the behaviors are, define those upfront, [00:53:00] get your stakeholders aligned and say, "Hey, we're actually gonna measure if people are gonna do this thing."

Dax Callner: Second, what do you want people to think about your brand, could be your brand, your product, as a result of the event, or think differently about your brand as a result? That also is crucial to how you design the event to make sure you are impacting people's perception of brand. That's our second big one.

Dax Callner: And the third one, I see a lot of head nodding, but the one that people often don't ask, which I love, is what is the value to your attendee? Why should they come to your booth? Why should they come to your event? What are they getting out of it? Because if we don't deliver value, we're not gonna get value back.

Dax Callner: And measurement should also be whether people felt your event was of value, and that is part of our ... Those are our big three core metrics at [00:54:00] EMMA that we are promoting to the industry. 

Dana Esposito: I love all of those. Christopher Cappas, similar question. What would be a nugget or two that you would want the audience to take away from?

Dana Esposito: I mean, specifically you've already recognized this, like a lot of us, for a long time, but to the point that you've already gotten involved and even become a member and a sponsor. 

Christopher Kappes: I'm not as prescriptive or as smart as Dax, so I, I'll, I'll lean on, on perhaps, uh, it's something to, to reflect on, and it relates to none of the prescriptive, but more to the reality of the world and demographics.

Christopher Kappes: Uh, if you look ahead, uh, or look, look at, at the mix of future attendees of trade shows, the baby boomers are aging out. I'm a n- I'm a baby boomer. The n- the next generations following them are significantly less in total And that means that there's gonna be fewer people going to trade shows. That's the reality.

Christopher Kappes: You know, you can't... I mean, look at what's happening in, in China and Japan, right? The, the [00:55:00] demographics are, are skewing and they're, they're as a result, as a society diff- you know, in a, in a difficult place. The United States, you know, we have, we have more, we have, uh, a replacement, uh, per couple that is, is decent, but the reality is the generations aren't as big.

Christopher Kappes: And so going back to my, the point I, I, I made, we're gonna have fewer people going to shows, and therefore we have to make sure that the people that are going, that we're, we're even smarter as it relates to measuring their behavior and what they're doing and the outcome from the events we're doing. So it's just something big picture.

Christopher Kappes: And as I get older, and, and yes, I'm getting older, um, you know, I'm looking, I'm looking back and I'm looking ahead and just wanna be sure that the time I put forward is something that's gonna help the industry for the next generation. And this, this to me is, there couldn't be a better, uh, other than perhaps my novels, couldn't be a better way, a use of my time.

Christopher Kappes: So, so that I don't... So anyway, that's, that'd be... It's, it's kind of a long-winded, uh, [00:56:00] non-prescriptive, but bigger picture thing that I've been thinking about and why I'm involved with, with Dax, and I'm proud to, proud to be, uh, you know, involved, so. 

Chris Dunn: Nice. Nice. Excellent. Well, that's great. Guys, super, uh, appreciative of the time spent here.

Chris Dunn: Um, I think we've got some wonderful information to share. We're gonna have some great clips. So our friends at Fist Bump are producing the show. Juan is running the big board back there, and I know a lot of the, the great little clips, um, that both of you guys have shared will be captured, and we'll, uh, we'll be, we'll be utilizing those to help bang the drum, uh, shine the light on, uh, on who is, uh, EMMA and why folks are gonna wanna get involved.

Chris Dunn: So we really appreciate your time. Thanks to everybody out there who's, uh, who's watched us. Uh, please, uh, you know, share this, uh, share this episode with, with everybody around you in your industry. Um, reach out to Chris, reach out to Dax, get involved with EMMA, and get the tools that you need in order to prove out the [00:57:00] ROI and make the massive, you know, uh, investment that your companies are making into events.

Chris Dunn: Make it something that you can, that you can prove out, and you know, uh, how to do your job and how to do it even, even better than you do now. So we'll leave on that note. Thanks everybody. Thanks so much for coming and, uh, we're out of here. Happy eventing, and have a great rest of the week. Cheers. 

Christopher Kappes: Cheers.