EMT #66 with Robert Laarhoven - What 40 Years in the Exhibit Industry Can Teach Us About What’s Next

The trade show floor Robert Laarhoven entered in 1984 looks very different from the one event marketers know today.

Exhibits were largely divided between traditional custom builds and portable displays. Graphics were produced through processes that now feel almost unimaginable. Modular systems had yet to reshape the industry, and the role of an exhibit house was far more focused on building the physical booth than on the broader marketing strategy surrounding it.
In Episode 66 of The Event Marketer’s Toolbox, hosts Chris Dunn and Dana Esposito sit down with Robert for a conversation that spans more than four decades of exhibit industry history.

Robert shares how he entered the business with almost no trade show experience, helped introduce modular exhibit solutions to the U.S. market, witnessed the growth of the rental model, became the first systems-focused president of EDPA, and watched exhibit companies evolve into partners expected to understand marketing strategy, audiences, ROI, sustainability, and the entire attendee experience.

But this episode isn’t only a walk down memory lane. It’s a conversation about what the industry’s past can teach us about its future—and why the ability to adapt, build relationships, and keep learning remains just as important today.

1. There’s No Such Thing as an Overnight 40-Year Career

Robert’s entry into the trade show business wasn’t carefully mapped out.

After college, he initially planned to work in his father’s business. A trip to the Netherlands to see what his uncle was doing eventually introduced him to the exhibit industry, and in 1984 he started selling a portable display system in the United States with little more than an industry directory and a willingness to knock on doors.

Many exhibit houses turned him away. Some gave him a chance.

From there came expansion, successes, financial challenges, new businesses, new products, and plenty of lessons.

2. Modular Systems Changed More Than How Booths Were Built

One of the central conversations in the episode is the evolution from portable displays and traditional custom fabrication toward modular systems.

Robert remembers a time when portable and custom exhibit companies occupied very different parts of the industry. Early modular products started bridging that divide, but scaling those systems to larger exhibits could still mean managing an enormous number of panels, extrusions, and individual components.

That changed as products such as Delta Matrix entered the market.

After seeing the system used successfully in Europe, Robert and his business partner traveled to Belgium and secured North American distribution rights around 2000. Then the industry faced another major disruption: 9/11.

3. The Best Exhibit Isn’t Necessarily All Custom or All Modular

The discussion also challenges the idea that designers need to choose between creativity and efficiency.

Robert describes older custom exhibits that featured beautiful architectural forms and craftsmanship, while acknowledging the efficiency and flexibility modern systems provide.

His point isn’t that one approach should replace the other.

The opportunity is to use each where it makes sense.

A designer might use modular systems for meeting rooms or structural elements that need to be efficiently installed and reused, while incorporating custom fabrication, LED, graphics, and other elements where they create greater impact.

Ultimately, the objective isn’t to prove whether something is “custom” or “system.” It’s to create an engaging environment that helps the exhibitor achieve its goals while being smart about how the experience is produced.

4. Exhibit Houses Aren’t Just Building Booths Anymore

Perhaps one of the most important changes discussed in the episode has nothing to do with physical exhibit construction.

The expectations placed on exhibit partners have changed.

Chris points out that when he entered the business, building an impressive booth could largely be the goal. Today, conversations start much earlier: Who is the target audience? What personas are attending? How does the experience connect to the company's broader marketing program? And ultimately, what business result should the investment produce?

Robert traces this thinking back to early conversations about integrated marketing and explains why it has become even more important today.

Trade shows compete with every other marketing channel for budget. If companies can't demonstrate a return, those dollars can move somewhere else.

That means an exhibit partner's responsibility increasingly includes helping clients get more business value from their trade show investment—not simply delivering the physical environment.

5. Industry Relationships Can Shape an Entire Career

Another recurring theme throughout the episode is mentorship.

Robert initially joined EDPA because he saw it as an opportunity to access potential customers. But once he began attending conferences, his perspective changed.

He realized he wasn't there simply to sell.

He was there to learn.

Robert recalls being able to contact established industry leaders, ask questions, and receive advice despite running a much smaller company. Those relationships became an informal education and eventually led him to serve on the EDPA board and become the association's first systems-focused president in 1998.
For an industry built around face-to-face experiences, it's fitting that some of Robert's most important career lessons came from simply being in the room with people willing to share what they knew.

6. The Trade Show Floor Will Change Again

If there's one lesson four decades of exhibit history makes clear, it's that today's solution won't remain today's solution forever.

Robert expects the trade show floor of 2035 to look significantly different from today's environment, just as today's floor looks dramatically different from 1985.

Static environments have already given way to motion, sound, LED technology, digital content, and experiences that engage multiple senses. Robert expects that evolution to continue, with today's walls, systems, and LED tiles eventually replaced by technologies and materials that may be lighter, easier to work with, and more immersive.

But innovation alone won't protect the industry.

Robert also warns about the continued rise in exhibiting costs. Ultimately, exhibitors fund the ecosystem. If participating becomes too expensive relative to the value they receive, those marketing dollars can move into private events, direct marketing, or entirely different channels.

As he puts it, the industry has to be careful not to “kill the goose that laid the golden egg.”

7. For the Next Generation: Show Up

Robert closes the episode with advice that is remarkably simple.

Show up.

Go to the conference. Walk the trade show floor. Meet people. Ask questions. Keep an open mind.

And most importantly, learn how to engage with people.

Technology will continue changing the industry, but Robert believes human engagement remains fundamental. He reminds younger professionals that everyone in an organization plays some role in sales, regardless of their job title, because trust and relationships still influence who people choose to work with.

His message also extends to industry veterans approaching the next stage of their careers: don't underestimate the value of decades of institutional knowledge. That experience can become mentorship for the professionals who will build whatever comes next.

Robert Laarhoven's career offers a rare view of an industry continuously reinventing itself.

Portable displays became modular systems. Modular systems helped reshape rental programs. Graphics evolved. Sustainability became part of the design conversation. Exhibit houses expanded from builders into broader marketing partners. And the trade show floor itself became more dynamic, digital, and experiential.

None of those changes happened overnight.

And whatever comes next probably won't either.

The larger lesson from Robert's story is that longevity in this industry comes from staying curious enough to recognize change, practical enough to adapt to it, and connected enough to learn from the people around you.

For younger professionals entering the industry, there is enormous opportunity as a generation of experienced leaders begins passing the torch. For those who've spent decades building the industry, there's an equally important opportunity to pass along the knowledge that can't be found in a manual.

👉🏼 Join us for more insightful discussions like this by tuning into 'Event Marketer's Toolbox,' where industry leaders share the tools, tactics, and trends driving success in the event world.

This Show is sponsored by Blue Hive 

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Transcript

Chris Dunn: Hey, everybody. Hello, and welcome to The Event Marketer's Toolbox. I'm Chris Dunn. I'm with Blue Hive Exhibits. I'm super excited to have a great episode today. Got a couple of friends with us, uh, one which you know. Dana is over with me, and also my buddy Robert Larhoven, who's been in the industry for a whole bunch of years.

Chris Dunn: Super excited to talk to him. So I'm gonna kick it over to Dana. Tell us a little bit about you, and then you can introduce Robert. 

Dana Esposito: Sure. So I'm Dana Esposito. I am the EVP of Strategy at Blue Hive. I have about 30 years in the industry, everything to do with design, experiential, and I'm very excited to be here with Robert.

Dana Esposito: Technically I'm on vacation today, but I said, "Robert's gonna be on. I'm going to call in." That's why this looks like mayhem in the background. This is not a real pool. All right, Robert, could you please introduce yourself to our, our group here? 

Robert Laarhoven: Yes, I'm, uh, Robert Larhoven, and, uh, I am... I've been in this crazy industry for, uh, 42 years.

Robert Laarhoven: And- [00:01:00] 42 ... um, yeah. And, and I have to make a confession, I'm a failed retiree. I tried to retire in- 

Dana Esposito: You sucker, 

Robert Laarhoven: you ... I tried to retire in, uh, 2021, and, and my goal was to get really good at golf, and, uh, that just wasn't happening. So I jumped, uh, I jumped back in, and I am, today I'm a consultant. And I, I like to, uh, you know, my, my goal as a consultant is to help others to, um, to achieve, uh, success, whatever their measure of, of success is, whether that's in the business world, in their personal life, or in their faith journey.

Robert Laarhoven: And I, uh, I just like to help people exceed, uh, to succeed. And, uh, so that's, uh, that's where I'm at today. I'm hav- I'm still having, uh, a lot of fun. Um, you know, being a consultant in the industry helps me to, uh, stay engaged. I, I've met so many people over the years. I have so many good friends in the industry.

Robert Laarhoven: And, uh, I just really, uh, you know, this is where I grew up, and, uh, I [00:02:00] just, uh, wanna stay in it 

Chris Dunn: Awesome. Awesome. Well, Robert, this has, uh, been a quite a while in the making. I know I've run into you a whole bunch of times on the trade show floor. Uh, I think, I think it was over at EuroShop when I finally was like, "You know what?

Chris Dunn: We need to have Robert on this fucking show." Um, so seeing you out on the floor is always a, it's always a treat. Uh, a little bit of a backstory for, for everybody who's watching. Uh, and this is a live show, so if you're out there, go ahead and drop into the comments, let us know where you're at, and, uh, and drop your questions in.

Chris Dunn: We'll be sure to try to work those into, uh, into the show. Um, so here on e-event Marketer Reloaded, we like to basically have organic conversations with folks in our industry. All different, uh, lenses, all different sides and so forth, but Robert and I have a history. So just a little bit of a background on this.

Chris Dunn: Um, back in the '90s, uh, my... myself and my girlfriend moved from Massachusetts out to Colorado. We were test driving [00:03:00] our long-term relationship. Happy to report that she is still my wife. All good there. Um, but, uh- But I was kind of flopping around a little bit. I, I had a, a graphic background. I was working in the sign industry and, uh, and graphics and so forth.

Chris Dunn: And I, I made a f- friend in Boulder, Colorado. He had a business that was kind of a little bit of both, both signs and graphics. And, uh, and luckily, I didn't know it at the time, but he ended up partnering with Robert Larhoven. Now, Robert, you, you were an established businessman, um, Canadian-born, Dutch ancestry, living in Atlanta, right?

Chris Dunn: You had kind of a, a deep, you know, story of all sorts of, uh, things, and, and part of that Dutch history I think obviously led to, led to some of your success bringing some products into the country. Um, but at the time, Robert, your business model was quite different, right? These are early days of kind of modular, customized modular [00:04:00] exhibitry, and you were opening up kind of, uh, actual showrooms around the country.

Chris Dunn: And ultimately I was working for, after a little bit of time, working for, uh, Denver, uh, Larhoven Denver, who was really kind of owner operated by our friend, our common friend, Don Woodard. Um, so here I am, young guy. I don't really know the industry. I'm still kind of thinking of myself as a sign guy, and I have the benefit of hanging out with this guy, Robert, who comes into town quite a lot.

Chris Dunn: He's a skier. Uh, he fancies himself, um, a fan of the, uh, of the Fat Tire Amber Ale as well, and that I did back in the day. And, um, I just looked up to Robert considerably. I was like, "Wow, this guy's really, you know, building this business. He's, he's traveling around. He's doing all these great things. Um, I want to learn more."

Chris Dunn: And, uh, just y- you know, here I am 30-something years later after that initial experience, and I really found, I guess, the, the confidence, the [00:05:00] courage, you know, to kind of stay in the industry. So when I left Colorado, came back to Massachusetts, you helped me get my first job, uh, 'cause you, you and your company were working with what at the time was called Saks Exhibits, and I was able to kind of plug in with them.

Chris Dunn: I knew a lot of the products. I knew some of the stuff. Even though I, I had not worked full-time in the exhibit industry, that was really kind of my first foray. Um- So that was 1996 that I moved back to, to the U- uh, not to the US, to the East Coast. I start working with, um, with Stan and, and Irving Sachs. I become a salesperson and oh my God, here I am, you know, 30 , 30 years later.

Chris Dunn: Um, and, uh, I s- I still, I still love it. Granted, not every day is a, a fantastic day, but, um, every day provides a lot of challenge and opportunities to learn and, uh, and grow. So I just, I wanna thank you, you know, for believing, seeing some things in me as a, as a young person and kinda pushing forward and, and you probably didn't even know it at the time, [00:06:00] but, um, it's cool to look back and think about the impact that that's had and kinda the, the career that I've been able to build, you know, build, and the family that I've been able to support because of what I've been able to earn here in the industry 

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah, you're welcome Yeah, those, those were, those were fun days.

Robert Laarhoven: You bring back a lot of, uh, you bring back a lot of fond memories and, uh, but also, uh, a lot of, uh, a lot of stressful memories 'cause, you know, I, I started out in the portable, portable business and my- Yeah ... my uncle, uh, my Uncle Franz in, in, um, in the Netherlands, he had developed a product called Lisset. I don't know how many people remember that.

Robert Laarhoven: That was a, it was put together- Go way back ... with these plastic clips and, and you could, you could, uh, with these panels, they were rectangular, they were trapezoid, they were, they were triangles, and you could, it was like an Erector Set, right? And you, and you could just build with it. And, uh, my, my goal af- Mm

Robert Laarhoven: I went to school in Memphis, Tennessee, [00:07:00] and I went there to play handball of all things, four-wall handball, uh, real Neanderthal, uh, sport, but I, I was very good at it. So I went to Memphis, Tennessee to play. I went there for four years, and, uh, went back to Canada to work in my dad's business that was a, it was a, uh, a mobile catering and food service business.

Robert Laarhoven: And he had- Okay ... it was a fairly la- large business. He had about 500 employees. Oh, wow. Produced about 40,000 sandwiches a day, 80,000 donuts, and, and my goal was to, uh, I only wanted one job in that company, and that was his, but he was only 50 years old, so he wasn't quite ready to, uh, to retire. So he said, "Why don't you go to Holland and see what your uncle is doing, and maybe you can do that here in Canada."

Robert Laarhoven: S- so I went, I went to Holland and spent a couple of weeks, saw what he was doing, and my uncle said, "Hey, you know," at that time, "Canada's only got 25,000 people. United States has got 250,000. I really would like you to do it in the United States." [00:08:00] So I said, "Okay." And the only thing I knew about, about trade shows was, um, the only thing I knew about trade shows was about a paragraph or a half page that was in a marketing 101 book, you know, in, in, in college.

Robert Laarhoven: I, I graduated with a finance degree, so marketing was just one of the entry level courses. And, um, and so anyway, there I started. I, I, I started in New Jersey in 1984, and I didn't know what, I didn't know what I was doing. I, I, I had a, I had a, a book that, that, I, I think it was IEA at the time, uh, that is, that then, that put on the TS2 shows.

Robert Laarhoven: It was the International, uh, yeah, IEA. I can't remember what it stood for, but they ran the T- TS2 shows, and they had this book, and, and it had cities, and it had exhibit builders, and that's how I, that's how I travel. I would travel, take that book with me, and go visit exhibit, exhibit houses and, and, uh, sell them, uh, sell them on, on the [00:09:00] Lisset system.

Robert Laarhoven: Most of them threw me out, but some of them, uh- ... some of them embraced it, and, and that's how I got, that's how I got my start back in 1984. Yeah. Wow. 

Chris Dunn: Wow. 

Robert Laarhoven: And then, and then so, so moving forward, uh- I, uh, so, you know, we expanded the product line. We had about five products, you know, and, and then we opened these offices in, uh, in other s- i- cities 'cause I had opened a, a sales office in Atlanta and called Larhoven Design Atlanta.

Robert Laarhoven: And, uh, and that, that was very successful. And so I decided, boy, if I can do this here in Atlanta, I can, I can open offices in other cities. And Denver was one of those cities. I had a good, you know, a, a relationship with Don Woodard, and so we opened up, opened up, uh, Denver, Salt Lake City, Tampa. And, uh, and it, it, it did okay for a while till we ran out of money, you know?

Robert Laarhoven: It, it's... [00:10:00] I wasn't a very good, uh, even though I had a finance degree, I wasn't very good with the finances. And, uh, it almost put me... Having all those offices using my money instead of other people's money, it kind of, uh- Hmm ... it almost put me out of business. And so, uh, yeah, so f- lot of fond memories, but also some, uh, some stressful memories.

Chris Dunn: Well, learnings, right? The... We, we don't f- necessarily fail, we just, we learn and, and learn- Yeah ... what doesn't work. Yeah. 

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah. You know, and, and today, you know, people, they'll, they'll look at, at people our age, you know, and they, they'll look at us as, as, uh- They, they look at us, they, they might say, "Oh, you're, you're a successful, uh, person, you know?"

Robert Laarhoven: And, and, and, and, uh, but I always say it's, uh, it was a 40, a 40-year overnight success story, right? It was, it was a lot of hard work. It, it, being around, having a lot of good people around you, being at the right place at the right time. And it wasn't all about how smart you were yourself, it's, [00:11:00] uh, it's about a lot of other factors.

Dana Esposito: Yeah. Same thing with, like, professional athletes who are really successful or anybody who's really successful. Yeah. It'll be, how did they do that? It's like, well, I failed a lot and- Yes ... learned from it, and then I put it in my pocket and I kept going, learning with that. So yeah, you're building on, you're building a future on a stone foundation of failures and, which, I don't know, I think is pretty awesome.

Dana Esposito: I celebrate failures. You know, I, you know, I'm not happy when it happens, but right after that I dust off and do exactly what you did. Um, there is some, there are some people chatting over here, Chris, if you wanna take note. I know you, you, you're multitasking. But one of them was, uh, Theresa Adaway said, um, the show, I mean, the, the organization you were trying to think of was probably TSEA at the time, Trade Show Exhibitors Association.

Dana Esposito: Yeah. Later became IEA. 

Chris Dunn: Okay. Yeah, yep. And, uh, Hans, uh, Lienhaus is in there. He's, uh, he's, he's remembering the Laurahoven Lasette. 

Dana Esposito: Yep. 

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah, those were, yeah, [00:12:00] Hun. Yeah, we had some, we got some great memories there as well. Hello, Hun. 

Dana Esposito: Yep. Um, so I know- 

Chris Dunn: And Jan, and Jan Vito used to be, uh- Yeah ... used to work with Blue Hive as well.

Chris Dunn: Yep. So hey, Jan. Hey, Jan. 

Dana Esposito: Thanks for tuning in. Um, and Rich Keith- Um, so- Right ... Robert, when, I mean, I've been in the industry s- nine- since, like, '97-ish, um, and when I think of your name, I always think of systems for obvious reasons. You were very pivotal in that whole sort of development and that product and, and basically its progression.

Dana Esposito: So let's talk about modular systems, and let's talk about how they changed the exhibit floor. You wanna, like, take us through a little bit of how they came to be specifically and what- Yeah, so- ... some of the goals were, and how it really, how you saw a change of floor? 'Cause I saw a change of floor but more from a designer's perspective, but I, I wanna talk to you about what you, what you saw.

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah, so, you know, when we talk about modular systems, [00:13:00] um, it started out as, as portable systems, you know? It was in, back in the day, you had, you had your custom exhibit houses that built everything out of wood primarily. Um, and then you had your, uh, your portable exhibit houses, and they sold primarily portable, like S- Sachs, uh, Irving Sachs.

Robert Laarhoven: He was a pioneer in that, in that business, and selling- Mm-hmm ... tabletop displays and 10-foot displays. And, you know, Nomadic was there with their, with their popup. Nimlock was there, um, with their panel system. And these, uh, there, there was, there was a very distinct separation between the portable exhibit businesses and the, and the custom exhibit businesses.

Robert Laarhoven: Some of the custom exhibit businesses, they, they, uh, became dealers of, uh, of the manufacturers. Um, but most of them, uh, if they, if they needed it, they would call a portable dealer, and they would, uh, and they would [00:14:00] buy the, the portable exhibits from those, uh, from those dealers, like Sachs and Company. Then, um, you know, the modular systems came along, and, and I think Exponents was one of the first.

Robert Laarhoven: They built a fabulous, uh, fabulous system. Uh, it was, had these tuning forks that, that you put the systems together with. And, um, and then we had one that was called Gen- Um, and Horror had one. Um, and, and then all of a sudden people started using these, these laminate systems, 'cause now these were covered in laminate to simulate a custom exhibit, and they were great for, uh, they were great for 10 by 10, 10 by 20s, 20 by 20s, but the largest panel was probably a four by, a four by four foot panel.

Robert Laarhoven: And so a lot of parts and pieces, a lot of panels. So if you started to, if you started to, uh, build large exhibits, like, you know, 30 by 40s, [00:15:00] 50 by 100s, whatever size, th- you would have so many, so many panels and parts and pieces that it, it would just be, uh, very, very cumbersome, and there had to be a better way.

Robert Laarhoven: And, um, you know, Octonorm was in the game. They were, they were one of the first to, to pioneer, uh, they pioneered the aluminum extrusion system, and, and they were strong in the, in the exhibit houses, um, 'cause the exhibit houses would use the, the aluminum extrusion for, for their rental exhibits or, or to, to, uh, to build, to build conference rooms.

Robert Laarhoven: A lot of the general contractors bought Octonorm. So they were, Octonorm was a, was a, a leader in, in the industry, but there had to be a better way to do, to build exhibits than, than, uh, with extrusions, where you had a myriad of, of extrusions, of different sizes that had to get assembled on the show floor, and, and these panel systems that, that, the- they were four, you know, two foot by four foot, four foot by four foot panels [00:16:00] So our customers, so I had an exhibit house in Atlanta called Larhoven Design Atlanta, and we were, we were pretty successful.

Robert Laarhoven: And, uh, my business partner, Lance Wachholtz, one of his customers was going to Europe. And so they, uh, they rented an exhibit from Larhoven Design Netherlands, and it was a, it was a, uh, a matrix exhibit. At that time it was called Delta Matrix, and it was built by a company called Delta Light out of Belgium, and my uncle was, was the Dutch, uh, Dutch distributor of that product.

Robert Laarhoven: And the customer came back and he said, "Wow, you know, how come this product was, was wonderful, the exhibit was wonderful. How, how come you guys, um, aren't selling this here in the United States?" So I think that was in September. In October, Lance and I were on the next plane going to, uh, going to Belgium and meeting with Delta Light, and we signed a, a North American distribution contract [00:17:00] with them.

Robert Laarhoven: And, uh, and then we started, we, we started designing with it and selling it with it, and this was in the year 2000, I think. Yeah, 2000. And, uh, and then in, in, in 2001, 9/11 hit, right? 9/11 hit. And, uh, and then, you know, the exhibit industry died, and, and so, um, there were companies that, that wouldn't even, that couldn't even afford to pull their cust- their custom exhibits out of, uh, out, out of storage to, uh, to send them to shows.

Robert Laarhoven: And so they, so that's kind of the, the beginning of the, of the, the rental, the birth of the rental, right? So we figured out how to, how to utilize B Matrix or at that time Delta Matrix. Um, we u- we figured out how to use that in a rental, in, in a, uh, in, in a rental, uh, market. And we [00:18:00] built a, we started building, in Larhoven Design, we started building a, a, a rental model, uh, within that company, and then through our distribution company.

Robert Laarhoven: And, and Larhoven Design Atlanta wound up becoming E4 Design. And, uh, but Larhoven Design, uh, the, the distributor, we distributed the Delta Matrix to, to exhibit houses. And, uh, you know, some of the early adopters were, uh, um, were Apple Rock Exhibits out of North Carolina, um, Trade Group out of, out of Dallas, uh, I remember ION out of, out of Chicago.

Robert Laarhoven: And, uh, and they were, they were early adopters of, of the system, and, and they started adopting this rental model. And what that, and what happened was the, the It gave these companies that were modular portable exhibit houses, it gave them the opportunity to go up the food chain and build larger [00:19:00] exhibits and be able to manage them efficiently because they didn't Have all the pits, uh, that internal modular systems had.

Robert Laarhoven: And so that's kind of what, you know, it, it, it was kind of a disaster of the, of 9/11 that, that, uh, that helped us to develop this market that was not visible before that 

Dana Esposito: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Chris Dunn: Um- Necessity is the mother of invention, right? As they say, right? 

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah. Yeah. And then, and then the second bout of that happened in, uh, 2008.

Robert Laarhoven: You know, 2008, uh, again, the, the, the economic downturn. Um- Yep ... after, after that, it, it, it was, it took a couple years to get out of that, and then exhibit, the, the other, the, the exhibit companies, the, the full service traditional custom exhibit houses, they had old and tired wall panels that they were using as [00:20:00] their, as their inventory for, uh- Right.

Robert Laarhoven: Right ... for designing and, and for renting. And, uh, they needed to, to reinvest, and we were just the right place at the right time. Their balance sheets started looking better after a couple years and, and then by the time we s- we started Be Matrix in 2012, um, because I had sold Larhoven Design and, and we, and we, and we started Be Matrix.

Robert Laarhoven: And, uh, and what really kickstarted that Be Matrix was the fact that we were able to, to use SEG graphics. We were able to use fabric graphics. Mm-hmm. And that's when, that's 

Dana Esposito: when- Yeah. Changed a lot. Yeah. 

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah. That- Yep ... that's when the exhibit build, the, the traditional exhibit build community really embraced it.

Robert Laarhoven: And, uh, and then the, you know, from there it shot up like a, like a meteor. 

Dana Esposito: Mm-hmm. 

Chris Dunn: Yeah. You know, but you were, you were mentioning, uh, and I couldn't remember the years, but so 2000, and I remember being at Saxson. We were buying some of those Delta Matrix panels, and [00:21:00] everything that you'd do with it was an infill.

Chris Dunn: So either it was a piece of Sintra with a graphic on it or just color or a piece of laminate, you know, on Sintra or whatever it was, some sort of infill. Um, and wow, okay. So I wouldn't, I, I didn't remember that it was a full decade, uh, or more of, um, of usage kind of in that form before that SEG, you know, really kind of kicked in and, and kind of changed things dramatically.

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah. We had, so a- and, and Delta Light had, uh, or Be Matrix, um, they had produced some other systems that were, uh, that used that SEG that we, that you could make panels out of it. Okay. But, um, but it wasn't, it wasn't a system, you know? And, and it wasn't- Right ... until we took the, the, the famous, uh, frame, frame with holes and we put the SEG channel in there and, and, and that's when, that's when that, when it really became, uh, really became popular.

Dana Esposito: Mm-hmm. And now, um, it's like every exhibit house [00:22:00] has, you know, a system or sometimes more than one system in their rental inventory or that they typically will use to propose, you know, to sell to a client as part of the exhibit solution. Um, how do you feel, um, how do you feel like it changed the design?

Dana Esposito: Um, like from designer's perspective, I feel like there are pros and cons, but I'm a big fan of systems. So when I say pros and cons, I also don't want anyone hearing me thinking it's a negative thing, 'cause I don't. Um, so before I maybe say a little bit more, more about that, um, from design perspective, how do you feel like it's changed the appearance, uh, or, and the functionality and the sustainability of the show hall floor over the last, say, you know, 15, 20 years?

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah, you know, back in the day, back in the day you'd have a, you'd have an exhibit 20 by 30, let's say a 20 by 30 exhibit, and, uh, it was all covered in laminate. Mm-hmm. You know? That was, it was, it was [00:23:00] interesting, um, in the 1980s and 1990s, whenever, whenever Wilsonart or, or, uh, Formica, you remember those n- 

Dana Esposito: Still do.

Robert Laarhoven: Yes. When new laminates, uh, the exhibit builders would go crazy. "Oh my goodness, we got... Look, we're gonna change..." And, and everything, you know, it, it, it, the kind of design flowed around the, the, uh, the, those color swatches. And back in the day, you know, the, the, when I was in, when I started in 1984, um, everything was silkscreen.

Robert Laarhoven: So if you wanted- Mm ... to have a logo, you had to decide what the size was of that logo, and then you had to burn a screen and, and you'd have to, you'd have to s- you know, use a, you'd have a, you'd put the screen down on the laminate, and then you'd, you'd put ink down and, and with a squeegee. And if the customer didn't, didn't like the size of the logo and they wanted to change the size of the logo, well, then you had to change the, you had to [00:24:00] get a new screen.

Robert Laarhoven: And it wasn't today where you just- Start 

Dana Esposito: all over again ... 

Robert Laarhoven: you know, change the size on your screen. It's not quick. Yeah. And then- Not ... and then the lama- And, and then if you had a, a, you know, rear lit, if you wanted a rear lit graphic, it was a 30 b- inch wide by 40-inch high c-print, you know, and, and, and, uh, and, and that was it.

Robert Laarhoven: And so, um- You know? But, but some of those designs were, were exquisite. They were wonderful, you know? And, and, uh- Mm-hmm ... and architecturally speaking. And so I think today, so if you, if you compare that, you know, there was, there was a lot more organic shapes, I think, that, that you saw ma- built out of wood, like, and- Mm-hmm

Robert Laarhoven: and Chris, I know you, you posted something, uh, a, a while back that, something that Blue Hive had done. I think you used it at, at, uh, at Exhibitor Live, and it was, it was a fabulous- Yeah ... booth, you know? It was, uh, and- Thank you, Dana ... you saw a lot more of that back then. Today you see- Yeah ... a lot [00:25:00] more, uh, walls and rectangles and, and, uh, somebody, uh, uh, at, uh, Inno- Innovate, um, up in Connecticut, they, they coined it as, uh, picks and sticks, you know?

Robert Laarhoven: It, it's, it's just a bunch of s- bunch of walls with, with, uh, with, with graphics on them. And I think the challenge is for the exhibit builder, uh, well, for the exhibit builder is how do I, how do I create a design, you know, how do I create a fantastic design and utilize, uh, custom elements where they're appropriate, and utilize the, the system elements, um, where they're appropriate?

Robert Laarhoven: Like for the meeting rooms. You know, you don't have to build those meeting rooms out of, out of wood and, and, and have them be heavy. You can use, uh, a system for those, and you can incorporate that

Robert Laarhoven: Into a, of, uh, [00:26:00] LEDs, of, of LED walls, of, of, uh, of wooden elements, uh, custom designed elements and, uh, and, and the system where it's a- where it's appropriate, you know? Mm-hmm. And, and 'cause in the end, you know, y- y- you wanna, you wanna build a, an exhibit that's engaging, um, so that the, so that your customer, the exhibitor, can, can attain their s- their, their goals.

Robert Laarhoven: Mm-hmm. Um, but you also wanna do it in a way that's, that's the most efficient. Um- Yeah ... setting up, you know, if you're gonna set up several conference rooms, um, you're using a system like BeMatrix or Alivision or Agam, um- 

Dana Esposito: Yeah ... 

Robert Laarhoven: or Octonorm, they have a wall system now too. Um, you know, using those i- is, is quick and easy, and then you can reuse them.

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah. Reconfigure them. Yeah. And, yeah. 

Dana Esposito: I mean, I feel ridiculously fortunate to have come into the industry when I did and at the age that I did because I was at a custom exhibit house who literally lived through everything that you just talked about was [00:27:00] the, of the path for systems exhibits. Um, and so my brain always is using everything that I've seen.

Dana Esposito: Like, even think about when fabric first really started coming out, um, into more fabric structures and even the SEG's. People would be like, I'd hear people say, "Oh, well booths are eventually gonna be all fabric," right? Or, "B- booths are gonna be all systems." Like, there's always when something sort- sort of hits a pivotal, um, like, a pivotal spot in its development becoming more user-friendly and smart and just all of those things, affordable, people panic and go, "Oh no, booths are gonna be all that."

Dana Esposito: It's like actually no, they're going to be-- I look at all of those things like it's a tool belt, and they're like little weapons in my tool belt as a designer and I always try to explain that to upcoming designers that use whatever material is the best solution for that project. Right, right. And nine times out of 10 the best solution is a combination of those things, right?

Dana Esposito: Yeah. Like you were saying, Robert- Yeah ... make your back wall- Yeah ... or your tower out of, like, pa- make BeMatrix panels or, or, [00:28:00] or- Yeah ... Alivision, whatever the, the system that your company uses is. Um, if you're gonna do something really custom, if you-- If-- I've always worked at custom shops which is as a designer super smart because I can come up with something and they can build it from scratch out of wood and laminate.

Dana Esposito: But I put them together in the same booth just like you might have like a moss- Yeah ... or a fusion or a tension fabric sign over your head. You know? Yeah. I'm, I'm not gonna make a wood and laminate sign over my head. Um, and then as- But it's, I think that's- ... went along and LED tiles were, were fitting onto them beautifully- Yeah

Dana Esposito: it's like aha. You know? It's like another tool in my belt. 

Chris Dunn: Yeah. Robert, were you gonna kind of add something? 

Dana Esposito: Yeah. 

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah. I think, I think as a, as an exhibit builder too, you have, you have the, the luxury of, of you can look into the marketplace and you can pick and choose best of, you know, uh, the, the best products out there.

Robert Laarhoven: You know? Mm-hmm. And you can, and you can combine them. And I think, you know, the strength for the exhibit houses is [00:29:00] that because things change. You remember back in the day when every- everybody was using nomadic, you know, the nomat- nomadic pop-up display and you thought those would never go away. And then all of a sudden they were making those, those 10-foot back walls out of a, out of some pipe- piped aluminum and, and fabric that, that fit over it like a pillowcase.

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah. So I think the, the, the, the only constant we have in our industry is, is change. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. You know, that, that, that... And, and as an exhibit builder, you have, you have the luxury of being able to, to choose, pick and choose best of class products- Yep ... um, to service your clients. And- 

Chris Dunn: Yep ... 

Robert Laarhoven: and, uh, but, and y- you know, people ask me what, how, how's the industry- you're gonna change What we've seen, if you look at the past and you say, "Okay, the past is gonna con- is going to, is, is gonna repeat itself in the future," we know that, that whatever you're seeing on the show floor today, um, is not what you're gonna see on the [00:30:00] show floor, you know, 10 years or 20 years from now.

Robert Laarhoven: It's, it's gonna change. What's the... People ask me, "Well, you know, Robert, you, you, uh, you helped define, you, you and your team, and your competitors," uh, and it wasn't just us, it was our competitors too, "you helped define, you helped change the way that, uh, exhibits were built," right? With, with the introduction of Delta Matrix and then BMatrix and, and, uh, and Aluvision and, and then AGAM and...

Robert Laarhoven: And so you, you change the, the, the, the way that, that exhibits were built but it's not gonna, it's gonna change again. We just don't know when. Mm-hmm. Right? We just gotta keep our eyes- Yeah, absolutely ... our eyes open and our, and our ears to the ground and, and see what the trends are and, and that's why you go to shows like, like EuroShop and, and ExhibitorLive and, you know, or other, other shows, you know?

Robert Laarhoven: And, and you, and you just, uh, you show up and you, and you see what's going on and you see what tr- what, what might a future trend be. 

Dana Esposito: Yeah. And the [00:31:00] systems, they just continue to, you know, evolve, uh, into not just something functional. You know, there's so many other benefits that go along with them as well, you know?

Dana Esposito: And every company's done this. You know, BMatrix a- and, and Octonorm. I mean, there's so many but, um, think about the sustainability portion of it, you know? So many of them are made out of Aluvision. They're, they can be very lightweight. Um, they work with so many different substrates. Um, they can be used over and over again like Lego blocks.

Dana Esposito: Essentially their lifespan is indefinite, um, and if for some reason, God only knows, I don't even know how to damage a BMatrix panel or but let's just say someone ran over it with a fork truck because I don't even know how that would happen. Um, say it's bent, it can literally be cut down and reused or the aluminum can be recycled.

Dana Esposito: And with the- Recycled, yes ... the whole sustainability, uh, element, aluminum is one of the metals that can be recycled multiple times before it starts to lose its integrity as well, and it's obviously much lighter than, than metals such as steel. So [00:32:00] it's, it's kind of just an amazing tool to have at our disposal.

Dana Esposito: Um, and so, you know, even upcoming exhibit and experiential designers are trained also in systems as well. And I think when I said pros and cons earlier from design side, 'cause I, you know, I, I deal with, I work with a lot of creatives not just at, uh, Blue Hive but in the industry and th- they are big fans of systems.

Dana Esposito: Um, they'll also say when it first came out they were panicking, "Uh-oh, is this all that clients are going to like h- ton of legend want and all booths are going to look very like rectilinear?" Like everything's gonna be a rectangle and square. And the answer is no because it, it, like you were saying Robert, it's just one of the things that we get to have at our disposal to solve things in a client's best interest us, so Right.

Chris Dunn: Right, right. So I'd love to take- so you're talking, Dana and Robert, about the evolution of the, the, the product and what that's done on the industry, [00:33:00] modular and so forth. Um, I wanna kinda shift that a little bit and talk a little bit about the evolution of the exhibit house, and then what an ex- and an ex- what an exhibit partner, exhibit house partner, what are the expectations that are being asked of groups like Blue Hive and, and certainly other competitors, and there's plenty of folks out there who do an amazing job.

Chris Dunn: Um, you know, when I first started building a really kickass pretty booth was, was like that was the, the deal, right? That's what, what the goal was. And now, um, conversations that we're having are centered around, you know, marketing and, uh, ICPs and who's, you know, who is the, um, you know, who's the attendee?

Chris Dunn: What kind of persona do they fall into? We're, we're being asked to be much more of an advertising agency or a marketing agency that also happens to know how to build stuff, right? And combine all of that stuff. So having been around for quite a while, I mean, you I'm sure started s- have started seeing or were starting to [00:34:00] see maybe that creep in maybe back, you know, 2010, 2012, or whenever it was on your Laura Hoven design side.

Chris Dunn: But what are some, some of the thoughts of what's being asked of today's exhibit house and, and where do you maybe see that going? 

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah, so good question. Um, you know, if you would look back at history

Robert Laarhoven: a guy in, in, in Chicago, uh, Fred Kitsing. And, uh, he had a, he had a company called Kitsing, I think it was Kitsing and Associates, and it, and it was, they were a, a custom builder. Um, and he was one of the first ones, that I recall anyway, he was one of the first ones to talk about integrated marketing, right?

Robert Laarhoven: Before that, before that and during that time, the trade show program was an outlier, typically in a, in a company's marketing mix. It was, uh, an outlier, and that [00:35:00] exhibit might not even represent the, what the, what the company was doing in their, in their print advertisement, in their, in their, in their other media.

Robert Laarhoven: And, uh, and he was the first one who, who started talking about taking an integrated marketing approach to, uh, to the trade show program. And, you know, you fast-forward today, uh, to today in, in, in today's marketplace, um, I think that, that it- it's, it's even more, it's even more important, right? Is, and, and, uh, the, the trade show, uh, program, uh, might be under, uh, under the, under the auspices of, uh, of, of the event, of the event side, of, of an event department in the, in, in the corporation.

Robert Laarhoven: And they're, and companies are looking at, at return on investment, right? How, how much, how much- Yeah ... how many, how much business have I, have I, have I developed, uh, from having this, this [00:36:00] trade show program? And if, if that return on- On it, and they're gonna put that money elsewhere. I remember at- Right ... at, uh, at, at E4 we had a, for several years we had UPS as an account, and we had, they had an enormous, uh, trade show program.

Robert Laarhoven: And then overnight they decided, "You know what? We're done. We're done with this. We're gonna put less money into this, and we're gonna put it into, uh, into NASCAR," for instance. And, uh, because we're gonna get more eyeballs, uh, more eyeballs, uh, in, on our brand than, than at a trade show. So I think as, as an exhibit builder, you know, our, the, the, the challenge is, is, is how do I, how do I help that, how do I help my customer get more return on investment from what they're spending, uh, what they're spending on the show floor?

Robert Laarhoven: Because if, if we do a good job of that as, as exhibit builders, um, [00:37:00] then they'll still... If they're, if they can see that they're getting good return on investment, they will continue to invest in, in this marketing, marketing, uh, medium. And if not, then they're gonna go elsewhere and, you know, the, the rising tide rises all ships, right?

Robert Laarhoven: So if, if, if, uh, if you've got several companies that are doing a really good job of, of that, uh, showing ROI to their customers, then that's, that's gonna raise the, um, that's gonna raise the awareness for, for many others. 

Chris Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Um, a- and, and we all know that the, the costs, the surrounding costs, peripheral costs and so forth, show services, cost of materials, whatever it is, right?

Chris Dunn: It's like this is an expensive game. It's always been expensive. It's probably even more disproportionately expensive now. But people still go to shows, and they still work- Yes ... right? So our challenge is not, like, how do we make this cheaper. The challenge is like, okay, so yes, Mr. CEO, you're gonna sign off on a check that's [00:38:00] fif- that's $500,000, but what if we can put, you know, $50 million of, of pipeline, uh- Right

Chris Dunn: in there. And what if your, what if your closed one is, you know, 10 million, right? Or whatever the 3X, you know, 3X your, your investment or whatever, right? As long as the, the, the, the, um, ledger continues to show that the money spent is yielding the dollars over time, then it's still gonna continue to be one of the best investments you can do, but you gotta do it right.

Chris Dunn: You can't- Yeah ... half-ass it. You can't just show up and throw up. 

Robert Laarhoven: I, I remember, uh, when I was president of EDPA in 1998, uh, I was the, the first systems, uh, president of, of the association Yeah But I remember going to Europe, going to, to meetings in Europe with, uh, our, our, uh, sister association over there, IFAS, and, uh, and they say, "Robert, you know, we went to the United States and we had these bills.

Robert Laarhoven: They were, i- it's called drayage. [00:39:00] What, what's up with that? We don't have that here in, in Europe." What is that? And- It's 

Chris Dunn: horrible ... 

Robert Laarhoven: it's, uh, and they'd say, "What are you gonna do about it?" And I go, "Well, there's not a whole lot I can do about it." "But why is the cost of exhibiting so expensive?" And you'd explain it to them, you know?

Robert Laarhoven: And, and, um, but you know, it, the, the, the, the US market is the most lucrative, uh, lucrative market in the world

Robert Laarhoven: Same with advertising. If you wanna advertise in a, in a top, the old days, I guess, in, in, I'm talking magazines now. It shows, uh, I'm a dinosaur, but, um. But anyways, so you know, you, you, uh, if you wanna advertise in a good magazine, you're gonna have to pay money, right? And, and, and so- Yeah ... uh, you wanna, you wanna, you wanna have access to the US market, well, you gotta pay.

Robert Laarhoven: You gotta... So that's kind of a cold-blooded statement, but you know- 

Chris Dunn: Mm-hmm ... 

Robert Laarhoven: it is what it is [00:40:00] 

Chris Dunn: Yeah, exactly. That's a great transition to, um, you know, you've, you've not just been the president of, you know, a, a few different companies and, and ushered in, uh, dramatic changes, but you've really kind of helped lead that industry.

Chris Dunn: Walk us through a little bit of that, kind of that, you know, being that community member within the exhibit world. What, I guess, what kind of, um, what led to you, what led you to taking on the, the role of EDPA president a- as a modular guy? And I, I remember the conversations about you in the early days.

Chris Dunn: Like, you weren't getting a lot of respect, right? The, a lot of the custom guys were just kind of, uh, brushing off this young kid, this upstart- Right ... who's, you know, trying to change everything How did you- Yeah, I think- How did you end up taking that, that role as the, as the president, and, and how was that received and, and how did it maybe change in, during your time there?

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah, so I, I remember I, I was ... It [00:41:00] was, uh, nine- I think it was 1985. It was my first EDPA access. It was in, it was in Marco Island, Florida. I had to become a member of the association, and I remember- Hmm ... George Beauregard of Beauregard Exhibits, he, he was a customer of mine, and, uh, and he said, "You know, you really should be an, a, a member of this association.

Robert Laarhoven: If you're a member you can exhibit at our, in our showcase." And, uh, so I, I, uh ... In, in those days, you had to get, like, three letters of recommendation, you know? Wow. If you wanted to be a member of EDPA, it wasn't just ab- about paying dues. You had to get letters of recommendation from, you know, from ... I don- I can't remember what, what the rules were.

Robert Laarhoven: I don't know if you had to get it from a priest and a lawyer and a ... You know? And, uh, but- 

Chris Dunn: Rabbi ... 

Robert Laarhoven: but, uh, yeah. But it was, it was, it was a high bar, right? And then, and then in ... I learned later that in the board meetings they used to vote on, "Are we gonna accept this person as a member?" It's not like today- Wow

Robert Laarhoven: where you pay your dues and, and you're in, [00:42:00] right? So- 

Chris Dunn: Yeah ... 

Robert Laarhoven: so, uh, but, so I joined. My, my first ... The real reason, the reason I joined at the beginning was I saw it as a way to get access to that market and to, and maybe to sell to some of these people, right? It was, it was a ... It was from a marketing perspective.

Robert Laarhoven: And then I, I went to the show. I, I started going to those, to those EDPA conventions and, uh, conferences and, and I o- and I started learning. I started meeting people. I started learning. And then it was like, no, I'm ... I came to the realization I'm not here to, I'm not here to sell. I'm here to learn. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and, and it was, it was wonderful.

Robert Laarhoven: As a young man ... You know, I started the business ... When I started in 1984 I was 23 years old. And, you know, and at ... when I look at kids today, 23 years old, I can't believe that anyone took, anybody took me seriously back then, right? Right. 

Chris Dunn: But 

Robert Laarhoven: I went to, I went to these, to these conferences, and these people, they were, they were cordial.

Robert Laarhoven: They were [00:43:00] nice. They were willing to, to help. I, I, uh ... You know, when I got on the board, um, they asked me to, to step on the board. I think that was probably in '93. And, uh, and meeting people like Ga- uh, Gary Stewart from here in Atlanta, Bruce Dekle, um, uh, and, and Bill Haney. You know, meeting these guys... And, and then if, if you had a...

Robert Laarhoven: So here was this little, you know, my company at the time had probably, we probably had revenue of, of se- couple million dollars, several, you know, two, $3 million. And, uh, but I could call up Bill Haney if I had a question, and his secretary would answer, and he'd say, "Mr. Haney..." You know, in those days, "Mr.

Robert Laarhoven: Haney's office. Well, how can I help you?" And I, I'd say, I- I'd say who I was and, and, and that, uh, I knew him through EDPA and, and then he picked up the phone. And he picked up the phone- Hmm ... and, and I, I asked, I'd ask him a question and he, and he'd give me an answer. And I could do that with any of these [00:44:00] guys, you know?

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah. And it was like, "Wow, this is..." They call it access right now. What was the company 

Chris Dunn: that Bill Haney ra- ran, Robert? 

Robert Laarhoven: It was Dursee. 

Chris Dunn: Dursee. Dursee. Oh, okay. 

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah. And, and so, you know-

Robert Laarhoven: And Gary's company here in Atlanta. And you could pick up the phone and talk to these guys. And so they, today they call the, the, uh, the conference access, right? But you wanna talk about access, you have access to these, to these, um, industry people that, that are willing to take your call and willing to be mentors if, if you want them to be mentors.

Robert Laarhoven: And I know Dana, you're doing a lot of that now, mentoring and, uh, and EDPA does a great, does a great job of that. So in, it back, but back in those days, they were nice to you, but they, they weren't really, you know, they, they, they were kind of conflicted of whether you, they wanted you around. So you'd go to a conference, I remember in New Orleans mid-9- uh, like 1995 or something, and you'd go to New Orleans and, and they'd have a, they'd have one, one [00:45:00] general session for the, for the custom exhibit builders, and then they had another general session for, for the systems people.

Robert Laarhoven: And, and we're like, "Why are we in this room?" You know? "Why aren't we all together?" And then- 

Dana Esposito: Mm ... 

Robert Laarhoven: you know, the, the, uh, eventually that changed and, and we were all together, you know? And, uh, it, 'cause we, there were some people that, that wanted to start an assoc- a separate association for modular and portable exhibit dealer assoc- uh, association, right?

Robert Laarhoven: And I think there might have been one even. Um, but, uh, but eventually it came around and then nine- uh, I was on the board of directors for five years. That, in those days there was a, a five-year commitment. And then in the fifth year I was, I wound up being, uh, being president and, uh, right behind Larry Kulczewski, he was another guy that, that was, uh, a good mentor to me.

Robert Laarhoven: Um, and

Robert Laarhoven: And, uh, the association, [00:46:00] it was 

Chris Dunn: You're like a, a, a walking encyclopedia of the history of, uh- Right ... of the exhibit industry who, uh, now the, who were the power players and all of that. That's, 

Robert Laarhoven: that's super cool. What, what was interesting too in those days, 1998, so 1997, you know, that was the heyday of, of, of the

Robert Laarhoven: I had like five, six offices in, around the country. They were all bleeding money. And, and here I was coming in as president of the association. I, I didn't wanna be the first guy to go bankrupt while I was president of the association, right? That's an awesome incentive right 

Dana Esposito: there, right? Yeah, 

Robert Laarhoven: yeah. So Larry Koltzer comes into town in the fall of that year in, in of s- '97, and I think, you know, Larry's doing such a good job of being president, maybe he wants to, he wants to have dinner with me.

Robert Laarhoven: Maybe he wants to tell me he wants to be, uh, president for two years. So he says, so we go for dinner and he says, "Robert, I am so glad that you're gonna be president next year because, um, I, I have to step back [00:47:00] because I'm," he was with Exhibit Group at the time, and he, he was g- he was gonna take a job, he took a job with, with Dirsey.

Robert Laarhoven: And, uh, he says, "So yeah, you're, you're the new guy and I'm so glad that you're, uh," "... that you're gonna be president." I'm out. And I'm thinking, "Oh my goodness, now I, I, I'm gonna be that first guy that goes bankrupt when I'm, when I'm president." And, uh, but I survived. And but what happened too, we changed, uh, at that time we changed, uh, we changed association company, management companies.

Robert Laarhoven: Okay. And we went from a, we went from a cash basis to an accrual basis on our accounting, and we found out that we had no money. And you know- Yeah ... I was the right guy at the right time for the job because I knew how to run a company with no money. And so I, I was there to run the association with no money.

Robert Laarhoven: So I was, uh- ... luckily it was, I was only, luckily I was only in it for one 

Chris Dunn: year. I have experience in doing this. 

Robert Laarhoven: What's that? 

Chris Dunn: You said, you said, "I have experience in doing this." 

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah, right, right. I am the right guy. I was the right guy at the right time, [00:48:00] so. 

Chris Dunn: Oh man. Um, hey, we are 48 minutes in. We try to keep the toolbox here at, uh, at right around an hour, so we're gonna start- I can't believe it's that-

Chris Dunn: pushing it in a direction to, to wrap it up a little bit. Yeah. Um, Robert, crystal ball, you know? You've seen 40, you've more than four decades of, of experience here in the industry as far as, um, what's happened in the past, and the past can be an amazing teacher, uh, for what's gonna happen. We all know, uh, the saying, you know, what's old is, is new.

Chris Dunn: Um, but w- what, what do you, what do you see kind of playing out in the next, um, I don't know, several, a decade, two decades kind of, what are some of the changes that you're anticipating?

Robert Laarhoven: You know, I think if you ask me what the sh- trade show floor is going to look like in, uh, in 2035, I, I think- 

Chris Dunn: Yep ... 

Robert Laarhoven: you know, if, if you look how it changed from, from 1985 to, to today, uh, [00:49:00] y- there, everything was static back then. Today there's, there's motion, there's so- So much competing senses, whether it's sight, smell- Mm

Robert Laarhoven: sound. Um, and I think that's gonna continue. I think that that trend's gonna continue. Uh, we're gonna... You know, you're, you're gonna start seeing, um, you know, what, what's happening today with the LED technology and the LED tiles, I think that's gonna transfer to some other... It's gonna transfer to some other medium that will allow us to ha- to, to, to surface every wall with, with, uh, with moving, uh, pictures or animated animation.

Robert Laarhoven: Um, and, and I think, you know, you look at the way things are done today. The, the standard, the standard walls are made with, uh, the standard walls are made with systems like vMatrix or Alivision. Uh, and, and [00:50:00] but that'll change into something. Don't know what. Um, maybe something- Mm ... that's easier, that's lighter, that's easier.

Robert Laarhoven: Uh, and I think that, like the LED tiles, I think we'll look at, you know, they've been prevalent now for close to 10 years. And I think, um, we're gonna look at that 10 years from now and say, "I can't believe we used to build those walls that way," you know? Right. But I don't know what the... I don't know what it's gonna transfer to.

Robert Laarhoven: It's so limited, you're 20 

Chris Dunn: by 20. 

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah. It's gonna transfer to something. I don't know what, but it's gonna transfer to something. Right. Yeah. I think what we have to watch out for is that, um, you know, what hasn't changed, I think is the, is the cadence, you know, of, of, of, of, of the exhibits of, of how the, of, of, of how we set up and how we-

Robert Laarhoven: How we crazy and, and we have to, you know, I heard, I heard a story yesterday about a, a builder was telling me they went somewhere and, and, and they were forced to, to rent power [00:51:00] cords. They couldn't use their own power cords. They had to rent power cords for like, I don't know, 80 bucks a piece. And, and, uh- Mm

Robert Laarhoven: and it was, it was crazy. And so we have to watch out, we have to remember that the exhibit, that the exhibitor is paying all of our salaries. And, and you know, w- the, I'm gonna say the, the, we can't kill the goose that laid the golden egg. I mean, we've been saying that for 30 years. Um, but we really- Yeah

Robert Laarhoven: have to be careful of that because those dollars will go s- if, if, if those exhibitors say, "I'm not paying to play anymore," they're gonna go somewhere else. They're gonna go, it, it might be private events, it, it, it might be, you know, direct marketing. It, who knows? They're, they're gonna do s- they're gonna find other ways to, to get to their audience.

Dana Esposito: Mm-hmm. 

Chris Dunn: Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I, I, I agree. And, and there's obviously ways for companies like, like Blue Hive and many of the folks out there listening to us to adapt into, you know, private activations- Yeah. Absolutely ... and private events and so forth. Yes. But, [00:52:00] but the... if we, if we see the death of this golden goose that is the trade show world, it's, it's...

Chris Dunn: that's, that's a sad day. 

Dana Esposito: Mm-hmm. 

Robert Laarhoven: Yes. 

Chris Dunn: Yeah. That's 

Dana Esposito: also why I like that, um, the Exhibitor Advocate exists now with Jessica- Yeah ... Billia, um, to really give our clients a voice, you know, for the things that we can't control because Blue Hive and, and people like us, we do a great job at staying ahead of the curve with everything, whether it's cost-effectiveness and sustainability and then, you know, uh, experiential.

Dana Esposito: We stay... We're, we're ahead of it. You know? We're always bringing the latest thing. Yeah. But there will be some things that we can't overcome because they're not in our control. Um, and we can do really great events as well because also as AI evolves, I'm always thinking, you know, face-to-face, face-to-face marketing is always going to be there because how do I know if anything else is real anymore unless I was there to experience it- Yeah.

Dana Esposito: Right, right ... and have those conversations- Yeah ... face-to-face with someone. Like, I want to, I want to feel that I [00:53:00] can trust you if I'm going to do business with you, you know, whether I'm a med device company or what have you. Yes, I want to see the devices, but I want to s- see who am I dealing with really, that are going to protect my best interests, so.

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah, and I think the, like you, you mentioned the Exhibitor Advocate, and I, and, um, you know, I think that, uh, th- that now we see the, where IAE has, has purchased Exhibitor Live and Exhibitor Magazine. Mm-hmm. And- Yep ... and I think that, that that may, what, what may come out of that is it may, it may create dialogue between exhibitors, exhibit manager or, or exhibit own- or trade show owners, right?

Robert Laarhoven: Uh, associations. And also, um, also the general contractors. Because, you know, the, the general contractor, they get a bad rap and, and maybe they should, maybe they shouldn't, but they get a bad rap because their name is on, their brand is on the bill. So that's what people see, the drayage price. Mm-hmm. What they [00:54:00] don't know is the backstory of, of-

Chris Dunn: We lose him? 

Robert Laarhoven: There he is ... patients that own those may be dr- may be part of the pro... So I think, I think if we all keep the, an eye on the exhibitor and do what's right in the, in the right interest of the exhibitor, um, rather than trying to take every dollar that you can from them, um, I think that that, that will create dialogue and, and it might change the way that, that, uh, that, that, the cadence, you know, of, of how the exhibits run, right?

Dana Esposito: Mm-hmm. 

Chris Dunn: Yeah. I mean, I, I kind of... It's obviously apples and hammers, but you look at, um, what's going on in the world of colleges and universities, right? They, they just, they've continued to outpace people's ability to pay for them, and now we're looking at this giant cliff, right? There's, there's a drop in the population.

Chris Dunn: The number of [00:55:00] kids who are gonna be going to colleges and universities in the next decade or so is gonna drastically drop off, right? And each one of those schools is gonna have to ma- They're gonna have to make a major adjustment to, to how they've been doing business. Um, a- and I, I think we're headed, you know, likely we're headed in a, in a way that's gonna look something similar to that, right?

Chris Dunn: We're gonna get to a point where people are gonna be like, "I'm not paying $5 a pound for drayage. I'm just not gonna do it, right? So I'm done. I'm out." Yeah. "And we're gonna go do something else." And then the whole organiz- you know, the entire ecosystem's gonna have to be like, "Okay, so how do we right the ship," right?

Chris Dunn: "How do we figure it out?" Yeah. 

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Chris Dunn: Yeah. So hey, we're, we're heading into, to an hour here. Robert, this has been, uh, an awesome walk down memory lane for s- for me, and I'm, I'm hoping it's been, um, really fun for other folks to kind of check in. Uh, we got some commentary here from John Zippay, uh, and Hans, and Rich Keefe, Theresa, so thanks for, uh, checking in out there.

Chris Dunn: Um, obviously this, uh, this particular [00:56:00] episode is live, but the great news is that it, uh, it's recorded here. It's gonna be played over and over again here on, uh, right on LinkedIn as well as on YouTube, and then it shows up as podcast. So, so many different ways to consume, uh, the Event Marketer's Toolbox going forward.

Chris Dunn: Um, but Robert, we always like to end our, uh, session and ask you as our guest, um, if you could drop a gold nugget or two to the folks out there, uh, whether they be new or whatever the case. Like, what do you wanna end with that will maybe put a, put a pin in to something that's super important that you can add?

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah. I think, I think for the, for the young people, you know, it's, uh, this is a great industry. It's a wonderful industry, lots of o- lots of opportunity, especially with so many of us, um, so many of us exiting. You know, we do see a gray, the graying of the, uh, the graying of the industry. 

Chris Dunn: And- This is blonde, Rob, just like you.

Chris Dunn: Blonde, not gray. [00:57:00] 

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, like, like, like when, when, when you, uh, retire, Chris, who's gonna, who's gonna, who's gonna pick up all your accounts, right? That's a wonderful opportunity- Right ... for a, for a young person who wants to get into sales if, if they- 

Chris Dunn: Yeah ... 

Robert Laarhoven: uh, they do that- 100% ... if you, your company does it that way.

Robert Laarhoven: Um, but I think, you know, young people i- is, uh, is... Number, the one, number one thing i- is, is, uh, show up. You know, show up, whether that's at an EDPA, uh, whether that's at an EDPA conference, or walking a trade show floor, or, um, uh, you know-

Robert Laarhoven: Uh, need to engage is, uh, is, is show up. Just show up and, uh, have an open, have an open mind and, uh, and I think so many young people today, they, they got... And, and not even young people, old people too, 'cause I'm guilty of this

Robert Laarhoven: Is, uh, lose sight, [00:58:00] don't lose sight of the fact that, uh, human engage- the importance of human engagement. And, and you have to develop that skillset. And, and y- and, you know, some people come by it innately. It's just, it's a, it's a God-given talent. Um, and, uh, and others have to work at it. But, but do work at it, and remember that, that, you know, ultimately, I always told my, my employees, "We're all in sales.

Robert Laarhoven: Doesn't matter what your position is. We're, we're all in sales." Mm-hmm. And, and people buy from people they like, and you've got to figure out how to engage people and how to gain their, how to, how to gain their trust, you know? So- 

Chris Dunn: Mm-hmm ... 

Robert Laarhoven: show up, have an open mind, and, uh, and, and learn how to, learn how to engage.

Robert Laarhoven: And then for the, for us old guys, don't underesti- you know, that, that are maybe getting ready for retirement and, uh, and don't know what you're, what you're gonna do next and, and you're, you're not gonna be a, a golf champion like what I was trying to, trying to become- [00:59:00] Um, you know, don't underestimate the value that you have between your ears.

Robert Laarhoven: You know, the knowledge that- Mm ... that, the institution knowledge, the institutional knowledge you have of the industry is of value. And you, and, and you, you can, um, and, and you can leverage that, you can leverage that value. And so don't underestimate yourself. 

Dana Esposito: I love that because, you know, you're not a teacher, or you might not be a teacher, but you're a teacher.

Dana Esposito: Like- Yeah. Correct ... pass that on. We've, we've been so fortunate to be exposed to so many things, partly just because of the amount of time we've been working, but also because we, you know, lobbied to go to different events or go to a show to see something and learn something. Be open-minded- Yeah ... and pass whatever those nug- best nuggets on to someone else because, you know, what are you gonna just, just take it with you when you're dead?

Dana Esposito: Like, what's the point? Like, pass, pass it on to someone- ... to help them in their journey, you know? That's, everything that's important to me that I've learned has been from someone else who shared [01:00:00] something with me, and they may not even realize- Right. Right ... they did it. Yeah. 

Chris Dunn: Yeah. Good circular moment, right, Robert?

Chris Dunn: Robert, uh, young Robert encouraging a young Chris, uh, to stick it out and- Yeah ... and get involved in the industry, and here we are 30 years later- 

Dana Esposito: Yep ... 

Chris Dunn: wrapping it up. Yes. So- Yeah ... thank you everybody for tuning in, for listening. This has been a awesome call. Uh, Robert, thanks for joining us. I, I have a feeling, uh, that maybe we should do this again, um, maybe after we, uh, we attempt skiing, uh, after the, uh, 2027- Yeah, I'm 

Robert Laarhoven: looking, I'm, I am- It's on my calendar.

Robert Laarhoven: I'm looking forward to it. Thank you so much- Okay ... for giving me the opportunity 

Chris Dunn: to, uh- You're in Vail. I'm in Breckenridge. To do this. We're gonna do this thing. 

Robert Laarhoven: Yes. 

Chris Dunn: Awesome. 

Robert Laarhoven: Yes. 

Chris Dunn: All right. All right. Thanks everybody. Cheers. Have a great one. Yeah. Take care. Good night everybody. Happy venting. 

Robert Laarhoven: Yeah.